RWC Semi Final: France - Wales (15-08-2011, 21:00)

[SelimNiai]

It's got to be Wayne Barnes, i think he's quality.

Pre tournament I'd have agreed but Barnes has had a bit of a stinker

 

[TRF_RC]

Agreed, the consistency of Aus and NZ is enough to take the French out alone.

I'll be surprised if NZ are losers tomorrow, but gobsmacked (if not a little heartbroken) if they go on to the final only to lose to a france team who have their "traditional tour de force" yet has not played 1 decent match all tournament before that and already lost 2 games in the pool stages.

same referee that gave wales 2 penalties that they missed. wales could have won but they didnt.

I think, in lieu of next week's final, that's the main thing to remember.
It was Wales's match to lose. We could have won. We didn't. Neither of tomorrow's team would ever pass up on such a chance in a semi final, let alone a final.

 

[Saintjay]

A couple of points about this tackle issue.

1) It is a very difficult thing to prove intent. It is hard enough in criminal law when you need two things a guilty act and a guilty mind. Mens Rea, Actus Rea for the lawyers among you. It would be next to impossible for the referee to know this, other than act upon what he saw in front of him. The only person who can answer the question of his intent is Sam Warburton. He is never going to say he went out of his way to smash the player. He has said that he did it with no malice. A reasonable person would not expect him to say anything different.


2) For those that say the laws should be changed or what do we want touch rugby. Yes it is a contact sport that requires rules and laws to keep it safe. The ref's are told to be tight on this for one reason and one reason only. People can be very badly hurt. A knock on, hands in the ruck will not paralyse you. Young player were going out, spear tackling people before these laws were brought in, attempting to smash people as they saw there rugby idols doing.

Two of the most common causes of cervical fractures of young people in the U.K are horse riding and rugby. This can leave people paralysed or even cause death. From rugby the main causes being scrummaging, incorrect tackling technique, and illegal (dangerous) tackles. We should never forget that people of all levels play rugby for enjoyment and these rules are for people's safety. It is not the health and safety police gone mad or the anti-fun brigade. It is so men and women can enjoy the game and have fun. Not spend the realistic prospect of facing life in a wheelchair. If you are naive to think it does not happen or that the rules need changing ask the below people what they think.


Richard Vowles, 29, was injured in the final seconds of a local derby between Llanharan and Tondu in January 1998.
Woody" Beckham 22 paralysed playing rugby.
Matt King 22, who was left paralysed after a spinal injury during a rugby match.
Former England Under-21 international Matt Hampson paralysed from the chest down.
Roger Thomas 17 was a promising schoolboy centre when he was injured in a collapsed maul in 1977. I have added this a little good news as the guy now 42 has just had a child with his wife, after being told it was next to impossible

 

[King_D'Arcy]

I'm pretty sickened by the abuse Rolland is being given both online and from pundits/commentators. It wasn't Rolland who spear tackled Parra. Warburton has only himself to blame for this. It's obvious that refs have been told to crack down on those sort of tackles and that's what Rolland did.

 

[Dizzy]

same referee that gave wales 2 penalties that they missed. wales could have won but they didnt.
And refereeing is a human job. We aint meant to be perfect
Along the years watching wins and defeats I have learn something, you get an ugly win for all those unlucky loss you suffered. You can blame it on the ref as long as you want, one day it ll turn yourn side.
No need to change the way it works appart from scrutinising the ref overall performance. there are lee ways for errors, we are humans.

Dude, I'm meaning referees in general not just this one, calls in general, not just the one against Wales, I have already brought up the one on Mas..The, we are humans excuse doesn't fly when we have the technology to be as accurate as can be but dont use the technology to our advantage.

 

[tbhp]

Nope, i was supporting Wales the entire way so the matches were great, but i'm ruling them out for the very reason i said above.
They've been terrible all tournament. They look lost on the field.
Everyone says France has one great match every tournament...with their coaching i'm not sure they can achieve "great" and if they are going to have something resembling a "great" match then it's already been: Last week against England.

The two remaining teams are just too overwhelming favourites against France.
Granted, nothing is impossible, but a French win is not something i'd waste my money on were i a betting man.

Well, i think Laporte was worse than Lievremont. And what gives me hope is that everytime we had ou big match in the past world cups, we lost just after that. Today we won, so maybe England wasn't "the" match, i hope our real big game will be next week, which would also make more sense as it's the final.
And remember Australia and New Zeland have not been so good either so far. NZ only beat France by 20 points in their pool game, where France could afford to lose. Next week will be totally different.

 

[Olly Mays]

Rolland had no choice but to make that decision, after he sent fritz off for tolouse against wasps last year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALt9gDaf-10) he had to be consistent with his own standards no matter whats at stake. The rules dont change depending on the enormity of the situation.

listen to the commentators here and compare it to today! in my eyes there is no doubt which is the more dangerous tackle. If Rolland hadn't of sent warbuton off today there would have been something seriously wrong with reffing in the game.

Personally i think it deserved a yellow today but rolland had to be consistent so a red was the only choice he had.

absolutely gutted about itv's bias after the game, especially dallalighios. Fuimaonu sao-poluo is getting chastised for making his feelings about nigel owens known on twitter but the commentators will most likely not be reprimanded at all for slagging of a ref on live television..

 

[SelimNiai]

I'm pretty sickened by the abuse Rolland is being given both online and from pundits/commentators. It wasn't Rolland who spear tackled Parra. Warburton has only himself to blame for this. It's obvious that refs have been told to crack down on those sort of tackles and that's what Rolland did.

I have seen it again and from looking at still phototgraphs of the incident I concede Rolland had no option to send Sam off for the tackle.

 

[merlinux]

Dude, I'm meaning referees in general not just this one, calls in general, not just the one against Wales, I have already brought up the one on Mas..The, we are humans excuse doesn't fly when we have the technology to be as accurate as can be but dont use the technology to our advantage.

no offence bu I think we are with he TMO.
what do you want? a computerised refereeing system? As long as human will be involved there will be controversies. And If it was a computer looking at a video there would be also....

 

[kbourke88]

This is what I am hoping for and I think our game needs it to be honest. Just too many games being decided on referee's decisions.

That was pretty much the first thing that came into my head when I saw the card. I take the point many people have made that as per rule XX.X.X that is a red card, but seriously, theres a hell of a lot of dump tackles in super rugby every year and just about none of them end up red carded. Yellow yes, red no. And I would hate to see every dump tackle like that red carded. A red card just affects the course of the game too much. I hate a result that is tainted with a "but the ref..." and it seems that so many games in this world cup have had that taint.

Where do we take it? I would hate to think we end up down the rugby league track where there are two refs because we hate the refs so much. (also because the 2 ref situation is way worse).

Wales deffo had their chances to win the game, no one seemed to stand up and lead them after Warburton went off to remind them that they were still in the game and the frenchies were crap and if we do A and B then we can win. There were so many dominant players on the Welsh team, but they didnt string their play together and kept kicking it away. Luckily for them, France did nothing but catch the ball and kick it back, but I think with a little direction the Welsh still should have won.

 

[Dizzy]

A couple of points about this tackle issue.

1) It is a very difficult thing to prove intent. It is hard enough in criminal law when you need two things a guilty act and a guilty mind. Mens Rea, Actus Rea for the lawyers among you. It would be next to impossible for the referee to know this, other than act upon what he saw in front of him. The only person who can answer the question of his intent is Sam Warburton. He is never going to say he went out of his way to smash the player. He has said that he did it with no malice. A reasonable person would not expect him to say anything different.


2) For those that say the laws should be changed or what do we want touch rugby. Yes it is a contact sport that requires rules and laws to keep it safe. The ref's are told to be tight on this for one reason and one reason only. People can be very badly hurt. A knock on, hands in the ruck will not paralyse you. Young player were going out, spear tackling people before these laws were brought in, attempting to smash people as they saw there rugby idols doing.

Two of the most common causes of cervical fractures of young people in the U.K are horse riding and rugby. This can leave people paralysed or even cause death. From rugby the main causes being scrummaging, incorrect tackling technique, and illegal (dangerous) tackles. We should never forget that people of all levels play rugby for enjoyment and these rules are for people's safety. It is not the health and safety police gone mad or the anti-fun brigade. It is so men and women can enjoy the game and have fun. Not spend the realistic prospect of facing life in a wheelchair. If you are naive to think it does not happen or that the rules need changing ask the below people what they think.


Richard Vowles, 29, was injured in the final seconds of a local derby between Llanharan and Tondu in January 1998.
Woody" Beckham 22 paralysed playing rugby.
Matt King 22, who was left paralysed after a spinal injury during a rugby match.
Former England Under-21 international Matt Hampson paralysed from the chest down.
Roger Thomas 17 was a promising schoolboy centre when he was injured in a collapsed maul in 1977. I have added this a little good news as the guy now 42 has just had a child with his wife, after being told it was next to impossible

Do you not realise your problem?? They're English and that's that lol..
On a serious note, I do agree about the dangerous tackle needing some ruling against it. But when it is not malicious and unintentional then it doesn't. For someone that plays rugby and is in these tackle situations regularly, sometimes you don't even TRY to do it. It seems like it's just a mixture of momentum, timing, weight of your opponent and your technique and the player just automatically goes into the air. I'd say this is what happened here.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

To the point I can't work out who is best ref out there atm

Craig Joubert without a doubt

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[Dizzy]

no offence bu I think we are with he TMO.
what do you want? a computerised refereeing system? As long as human will be involved there will be controversies. And If it was a computer looking at a video there would be also....

I guess you never watched the NRL Grand Final then. The referee's combined with the TMO is foolproof and it works like a charm and definitely shows up Union.

 

[SelimNiai]

Craig Joubert without a doubt

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

Good shout and also, and I really cannot believe I'm going to say this, Steve Walsh has been less crap than normal

 

[donmcdazzle]

Do you not realise your problem?? They're English and that's that lol..
On a serious note, I do agree about the dangerous tackle needing some ruling against it. But when it is not malicious and unintentional then it doesn't. For someone that plays rugby and is in these tackle situations regularly, sometimes you don't even TRY to do it. It seems like it's just a mixture of momentum, timing, weight of your opponent and your technique and the player just automatically goes into the air. I'd say this is what happened here.

How is the ref supposed to determine intended malice? Warburton's tackle was very intentional in that he clearly lifted and then tipped him upside down, but I'm certain his intention wasn't to injure the player.

 

[Jockstap]

Never thought I'd say this but I'm heartbroken for Wales, can't even imagine what I'd be feeling if it was Ireland in that situation.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Short version of this post:
France won it playing badly. I think it was just a lucky win actually. If Warbuton had stayed on, if any of those many kicks had gone in, etc. Anyway, the welsh have a great future and they should be proud. We are probably the worts finalists in the history of RWC, fighting it with England '07.

Long version of this post:
Section I: The dynamics of the French Rugby Team
The french team works as follows: whenever they are the underdogs, they overperform and whenever they are favorites, thhey underperform. Until the 18th minute, they were the underdogs, so they were keeping it level against a very good welsh team. From minute 18 on they were the favorites, so they started playing as badly as they can.
Section II: The microstructure, strategy and tactics of the French Rugby Team
Most of the players had a very bad game. Harinordoquy was once again the standout, and Papé and Mas had very good games. The strategy was obviously to kick away possession and to try to play territory. Except for those very few well executed high kicks, it was just a waste. Defense was solid in general and set pieces were good enough.
Section III: My personal experience while watching this game
Obviously, I wanted France to win, but after Warburton's sending off, I started thinking how I would feel if France actually won the WC... In the past two games I've been cheering for France but kind of expecting losses... after all this french teal certainly doesn't deserve to enter any history book. After that, I think I actually wouldn't have minded a french loss. Obviously, I was still exctatic when the match ended.
Section IV: On the refereeing issues
I think the officiating was actually pretty good. The xception I make is that penalty awarded against Mas: Harinordoquy had cleaned the ruck and therefore the ball was available, the gat was two metres away fro Mas, he never joined the ruck! It would have been terrible had the game been decided over that call. The obvious game changer, though, was another controversial call. I won't get into Warburton's incident, but I see it as a correct call. However, knowing that everyone, and especially welsh fans, will be talking about that red card FOREVER, I would prefer them to blame Rolland than Warburton. Warburton is a great player that has an outstanding future as a player and probably many years as a captain. The burden of this RWC exit should not fall on his shoulders. Referees, on the other hand, are used to be blamed for everything and Rolland can always use the rulebook as a backup.
Section V: My wishes to the Welsh Rugby Team
Sometimes, in these occasions, one hears people saying "sorry, maybe in four more years" in a mockery way. This time, I think that the Welsh can be very hopeful about RWC 2015 with such a young an talented team. They have impressed every rugby fan in the world (I, personnally, would have bet on them not progressing through the pools...). Congratulations to the Welsh players and to those fans who can give a cool-headed analysis of this game.

 

[igorBastia]

Let the boring technology where it's lay; let stay what Rugby are: a sport of human being with human being values ; with it's weakness; defeat and strongness;angryness;respect; generosity; solidarity; disapointment and tears and sometime beauty and joy when his favourite team win ( for me France) The young welsh team has the future ahead.

 

[mustardcharlie]

Shutup ffs! Rugby is a team sport where team-mates stick up for one another. If there is foul play, then the rest of the team react and rightly so. Please can people stop being pathetic loosers and just accept the loss, and that Warburton deserved the punishment handed out to him. If Rolland is hounded in a similar way that Nigel Owens was after the SA v Samoa game, I'll be extremely dissapointed with my fellow countrymen and women.

By All means, comment on the game, give your opinion on whether or not it was a red card offence, but none of this French / ref bashing please!!!!!

For a Lincoln Uni man, you might want to learn the difference between a loose head prop and a losing (head) prop. As an ex-English teacher, WASP and England supporter through and through (at all sport), I have no brief for either France or Wales.

The discussion I/some of us want to consider is how the referees and officials stick to the rules and are consistent. There have been 4 joke decisions in this WC, as far as I am concerned.

The penalty given against Argentina for the tackle on Ashton, ultimately leading to England's try. Lawes, scrambling in defence, catches a player with his knee and is given a 2 match ban. Armitage deliberately shoulder charges a player to the head? Try it some time. I'll do it at 60 and if you hit my head with your shoulder, I'll pay the hospital bill.

Said my piece wrt to Warburton but as Dizzy and many NZ/Oz/SA fans have commented i.e. neither Frogs nor Taffs, if you're going to give a straight red for that, you may as well go to the synchronised swimming board.

 

[Dizzy]

How is the ref supposed to determine intended malice? Warburton's tackle was very intentional in that he clearly lifted and then tipped him upside down, but I'm certain his intention wasn't to injure the player.

Seriously, do you really require someone to answer that question??.. Come on dude it's not hard to determine malice. All you need is your bloody eyes. He never tipped him upside down, momentum forced him that way, stop trying to make it sound worse than it really was.