[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs Ireland

[Not Eddie Jones]

As I said, I think Cips is a good player, he's proved that at club level, but he hasn

Cips may not have made a difference last week but you asked when england struggled for tries and I gave you an example, one recent example of Cips try was that awesome kick against SA finished by May, when your not given a descent string of games I'd imagine it is pretty hard to grow into a team as a 10. Cips is not simply a good club player he is a class act, maybe he is too disruptive to the team maybe personality clashes with others who knows, he simply has more ability than Ford and Faz is a different kind of 10 so it's difficult to compare those two.

From a prem point of view Tigers have gone down hill since Ford joined, relegation battles etc compare that to Gloucester who couldn't make the top four cut, Cips moves makes it there and his previous team Wasps suddenly Fail to make the top four they had featured in regularly for the previous 3 or 4 seasons, not to mention he was awarded the player of the season.

I don't really see how you fail to see what he brings to the table when it is so obvious.

As I said, I think he's a good player, no doubt. But how is the try he created against South Africa any different to Ford's chip to Nowell to seal the win against Australia in the first test in 2016, or Farrell's boot from the halfway line to May to score against Wales in the 6 nations in 2018? In all three cases, the flyhalf spotted the space behind the up-rushing defence and in an instant of quick-thinking, exploited it with a pinpoint kick. Which is really my point: Cips is a good player, but he doesn't do anything that Ford and Faz don't already do for England. He's never been electric in an England uniform, he's never looked like being another Beauden Barrett or Dan Carter. If he had looked like a diamond-in-the-rough when wearing white, sure, get him in there ahead of Ford-Faz and give him a run of games, but why swap him out for Ford or Faz if you're not going to gain something extra that's beyond the incumbents' abilities? Plus, Ford and Faz bring additional qualities that Cips doesn't: they're both captains, Ford can play scrumhalf (thanks higgik! ) and Faz can make legal shoulder charges to win games. Sure, if Cips had a run of games at 10 he might turn into that awesome World-XV type player that people seem to think he could become, but that goes back to what I said about ifs, buts and maybes. Purely on the evidence of what he's produced to date in an England uniform, he's not better than Ford nor Farrell and hasn't showed any sign that he threatens to be.

And as Tigs Man says, a club's form is about far more than one player. It's a team game, not to mention the importance of good coaches. Ackerman's been great for Gloucester, Murphy not so much for Leicester. Cips played for a year for the Rebels in Super Rugby and they were dreadful, but you can't lay all that failure solely at Cips' door, any more than you can lay all of Gloucester or Wasps' success solely at Cips' door either.

I'm not knocking Cips, he's proven he's a fine club player and I don't fail to see what he brings to the table for England, I just fail to see what extra he brings to the table for England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Probably deserves the same as Barrett. Missed May leading with the elbow in the same play too. Thought Owens was a bit reckless on the whole.

All of which is play on.

 

[Scotty]

https://twitter.com/Teddybreath/status/1165510604620279808?s=19
#Justice4Tom

I saw this in the game, is it a closeline or is it a trailing atm that makes minor contact. Im incline to just say move on no one was hurt. If the was more force then it would be a definite citing. But meh lets move on.

 

[Which Tyler]

I saw this in the game, is it a closeline or is it a trailing atm that makes minor contact. Im incline to just say move on no one was hurt. If the was more force then it would be a definite citing. But meh lets move on.

I agreed before I saw this angle - it's way more than a trailing arm.
NB. This is a static view, and you really shouldn't judge by that, but add it to the video we've all seen...

I'd still leave it well alone (and Biggar last week) due to timing - which really shouldn't matter; but I really don't like the idea of something like this picking up a ban on the eve of the RWC

 

[Nudger]

Yep but hit May late and high aswell

 

[Scotty]

I agreed before I saw this angle - it's way more than a trailing arm.
NB. This is a static view, and you really shouldn't judge by that, but add it to the video we've all seen...

I'd still leave it well alone (and Biggar last week) due to timing - which really shouldn't matter; but I really don't like the idea of something like this picking up a ban on the eve of the RWC

Thats worse than i thought tbh, we will have to see what happens as thats clear contact to the head from the shoulder, a swinging arm and potentially late(though if it was a legal tackle he prob would have been commited so not late). Im not after a witch hunt and wouldnt complain if it was left alone but it is quite bad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Stephen Jones gave Youngs 8/10.

That is all.

 

[bushytop]

Stephen Jones gave Youngs 8/10.

That is all.

WHAT!!!! If I've ever seen an Englishman hit a 10 outta 10 performance, it was he yesterday... may he forever play !

 

[Scotty]

Stephen Jones gave Youngs 8/10.

That is all.

Lol

 

[Jimbo]

As I said, I think Cips is a good player, he's proved that at club level, but he hasn


As I said, I think he's a good player, no doubt. But how is the try he created against South Africa any different to Ford's chip to Nowell to seal the win against Australia in the first test in 2016, or Farrell's boot from the halfway line to May to score against Wales in the 6 nations in 2018? In all three cases, the flyhalf spotted the space behind the up-rushing defence and in an instant of quick-thinking, exploited it with a pinpoint kick. Which is really my point: Cips is a good player, but he doesn't do anything that Ford and Faz don't already do for England. He's never been electric in an England uniform, he's never looked like being another Beauden Barrett or Dan Carter. If he had looked like a diamond-in-the-rough when wearing white, sure, get him in there ahead of Ford-Faz and give him a run of games, but why swap him out for Ford or Faz if you're not going to gain something extra that's beyond the incumbents' abilities? Plus, Ford and Faz bring additional qualities that Cips doesn't: they're both captains, Ford can play scrumhalf (thanks higgik! ) and Faz can make legal shoulder charges to win games. Sure, if Cips had a run of games at 10 he might turn into that awesome World-XV type player that people seem to think he could become, but that goes back to what I said about ifs, buts and maybes. Purely on the evidence of what he's produced to date in an England uniform, he's not better than Ford nor Farrell and hasn't showed any sign that he threatens to be.

And as Tigs Man says, a club's form is about far more than one player. It's a team game, not to mention the importance of good coaches. Ackerman's been great for Gloucester, Murphy not so much for Leicester. Cips played for a year for the Rebels in Super Rugby and they were dreadful, but you can't lay all that failure solely at Cips' door, any more than you can lay all of Gloucester or Wasps' success solely at Cips' door either.

I'm not knocking Cips, he's proven he's a fine club player and I don't fail to see what he brings to the table for England, I just fail to see what extra he brings to the table for England.

We will have to agree to disagree, IMO Cips is just better he creates the space sees it and exploits it far better than Ford, he's also pretty solid in defence which was historically a weakness, he's never been given a descent chance for England and unfortunately this World Cup would be his last opportunity.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We will have to agree to disagree, IMO Cips is just better he creates the space sees it and exploits it far better than Ford, he's also pretty solid in defence which was historically a weakness, he's never been given a descent chance for England and unfortunately this World Cup would be his last opportunity.

Correction, he was given a decent chance and then blew it by being a twat. He was then given another chance and blew it by being a twat. He was given a 3rd chance and blew it by being a twat. 3 coaches have now tried and dropped him. That should tell you there is something seriously wrong with him as a person. From what I've heard he is like Trump, he believes his own hype and thinks he is gods gift to rugby and having people fawning over him doing even the basics of a 10 only reinforces that.

The long and short of it is he is a twat and his toxic attitude does more damage to the team than anything he can offer on field. Also the Cipriani is god attitude is kinda sickening, teams with Cipriani at 10 have been beaten by teams with both Ford and Farrell at 10. Also he does something that Ford and Farrell do but somehow it's amazing, to the extent a sodding pop pass to a forward running off his shoulder is praised as pure genius rather than something many capable forwards can do.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

We will have to agree to disagree, IMO Cips is just better he creates the space sees it and exploits it far better than Ford, he's also pretty solid in defence which was historically a weakness, he's never been given a descent chance for England and unfortunately this World Cup would be his last opportunity.

Unfortunately, Farrell and Cips do not work/get on and communicate. Farrell is the main man and as long as he is there as captain Cips England career is effectively over.

 

[Jimbo]

Correction, he was given a decent chance and then blew it by being a twat. He was then given another chance and blew it by being a twat. He was given a 3rd chance and blew it by being a twat. 3 coaches have now tried and dropped him. That should tell you there is something seriously wrong with him as a person. From what I've heard he is like Trump, he believes his own hype and thinks he is gods gift to rugby and having people fawning over him doing even the basics of a 10 only reinforces that.

The long and short of it is he is a twat and his toxic attitude does more damage to the team than anything he can offer on field. Also the Cipriani is god attitude is kinda sickening, teams with Cipriani at 10 have been beaten by teams with both Ford and Farrell at 10. Also he does something that Ford and Farrell do but somehow it's amazing, to the extent a sodding pop pass to a forward running off his shoulder is praised as pure genius rather than something many capable forwards can do.

To my knowledge he hasn't been a 'twat' since his last cap.
Oh dear, he was even voted player of the season by his peers, is that all part of his own hype....

Unfortunately, Farrell and Cips do not work/get on and communicate. Farrell is the main man and as long as he is there as captain Cips England career is effectively over.

Agreed I wouldn't be looking for them to play together, Cips could unlock defences where the others may be unable to.

 

[j-dawg]

Unfortunately, Farrell and Cips do not work/get on and communicate. Farrell is the main man and as long as he is there as captain Cips England career is effectively over.

If there is a personal issue behind this then I'd love to know the reasoning, if only for the gossip.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To my knowledge he hasn't been a 'twat' since his last cap.
Oh dear, he was even voted player of the season by his peers, is that all part of his own hype....

Jones openly stated that if Cipriani was disruptive on his tour of SA he would be dropped. How many other players do you know who get told that? He was then dropped again, which supports the claims that he was swanning around thinking he was the best and rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way. So yes, it does indicated that he continued to be a twat because that is who he is and who he always will be. As long as his ego keeps getting stroked by his fan base who hype him well beyond a position he deserves, he will continue to believe it.

He got voted player of the year by his peers, he has also had his peers claim he is toxic. I don't see Cipriani adding much to the side at all and I could see his "maverick" streak costing England games more often than it would win them, combined with how much friction he would cause in the squad, I think he would do more to damage team chemistry than improve it. I'd say Alex Goode is far more deserving as at least he doesn't appear to have attitude problems and has the same great club player but not shown it internationally situation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

When have his teammate's called him toxic, outside of Lewis Moody's autobiography?

He was very well liked at Sale

 

[Jimbo]

Jones openly stated that if Cipriani was disruptive on his tour of SA he would be dropped. How many other players do you know who get told that? He was then dropped again, which supports the claims that he was swanning around thinking he was the best and rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way. So yes, it does indicated that he continued to be a twat because that is who he is and who he always will be. As long as his ego keeps getting stroked by his fan base who hype him well beyond a position he deserves, he will continue to believe it.

He got voted player of the year by his peers, he has also had his peers claim he is toxic. I don't see Cipriani adding much to the side at all and I could see his "maverick" streak costing England games more often than it would win them, combined with how much friction he would cause in the squad, I think he would do more to damage team chemistry than improve it. I'd say Alex Goode is far more deserving as at least he doesn't appear to have attitude problems and has the same great club player but not shown it internationally situation.

You are starting to contradict yourself now, if his peers voted him player of the season by definition it can't be all his own hype, regardless of putting a caveat in there that they say he's disruptive, whilst like Ollie I would like to know when this was confirmed and not simply speculation?

 

[Leinster Fan]

I really don't see what he would bring to this England team, even leaving aside his personality. He's a decent 10 but he's not anything special and not better than the two other 10s England have. He could be a decent third choice 10 if Jones thought he wanted one but Eddie clearly thinks he's better off only two outhalves then that's his call. It's pretty clear that the England setup thinks he doesn't have the right mindset to be a backup, I don't know the man so I'm not going to make claims about his personality or whatever but he has a reputation (fairly or unfairly) for poor offield behaviour and when you're stuck with that tag you have to convince your coaches otherwise and it's pretty clear that he didn't do that when he was given a chance in SA.

I do feel like a lot of this has been stirred up by journos who know he's not actually good enough but are aware that he's easy to sell as a messiah so that if England fail in Japan you can guarantee that his name will be all over the papers the next few weeks, regardless of what England's actual issues were.

 

[Reiser99]

What he brings is more the Finn Russell style of creatively. Very random and chaotic, which looks good when it works and horrible when it doesn't. Yes that could add something to England's attack, but it's not the way they play and so Cipriani's style isn't suited really.

 

[ncurd]

Let's be clear the injury he suffered in that Wasps V Bath Prem Semi-Final pretty much ended his international career all those years back. England had to look at other options and stuck with those. He also came back half the force he was and left English rugby it took a long time to get back to form and then return to England by which England had already entered the Ford/Farrell era.

I think had Cips never been injured he would still likely be England's first choice fly half. As to whether he should now it's typical the best player is the one not playing syndrome. He's good enough to start for England but had he ever really pushed Ford or Farrell out by being miles better not really and Tigs' stats back that up. In equal measure Ford and Farrell have never really performed in a manner worthy of getting dropped. Most arguements are about who starts by style of play than anything else.

Also there's the problem with off field stuff and sometimes supposed toxicity. He reminds of Kevin Pietersen in some ways only KP forced himself into the team by being too good to not play and even then in the end that wasn't enough to warrant keeping him around.