[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs Ireland

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2019' started by TRF_heineken, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Not Eddie Jones

    Not Eddie Jones Academy Player

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2019
    Messages:
    114
    Country Flag:

    England

    As I said, I think Cips is a good player, he's proved that at club level, but he hasn
    As I said, I think he's a good player, no doubt. But how is the try he created against South Africa any different to Ford's chip to Nowell to seal the win against Australia in the first test in 2016, or Farrell's boot from the halfway line to May to score against Wales in the 6 nations in 2018? In all three cases, the flyhalf spotted the space behind the up-rushing defence and in an instant of quick-thinking, exploited it with a pinpoint kick. Which is really my point: Cips is a good player, but he doesn't do anything that Ford and Faz don't already do for England. He's never been electric in an England uniform, he's never looked like being another Beauden Barrett or Dan Carter. If he had looked like a diamond-in-the-rough when wearing white, sure, get him in there ahead of Ford-Faz and give him a run of games, but why swap him out for Ford or Faz if you're not going to gain something extra that's beyond the incumbents' abilities? Plus, Ford and Faz bring additional qualities that Cips doesn't: they're both captains, Ford can play scrumhalf (thanks higgik! ;)) and Faz can make legal shoulder charges to win games. :D Sure, if Cips had a run of games at 10 he might turn into that awesome World-XV type player that people seem to think he could become, but that goes back to what I said about ifs, buts and maybes. Purely on the evidence of what he's produced to date in an England uniform, he's not better than Ford nor Farrell and hasn't showed any sign that he threatens to be.

    And as Tigs Man says, a club's form is about far more than one player. It's a team game, not to mention the importance of good coaches. Ackerman's been great for Gloucester, Murphy not so much for Leicester. Cips played for a year for the Rebels in Super Rugby and they were dreadful, but you can't lay all that failure solely at Cips' door, any more than you can lay all of Gloucester or Wasps' success solely at Cips' door either.

    I'm not knocking Cips, he's proven he's a fine club player and I don't fail to see what he brings to the table for England, I just fail to see what extra he brings to the table for England.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12,068
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    All of which is play on.
     
  4. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,910
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    I saw this in the game, is it a closeline or is it a trailing atm that makes minor contact. Im incline to just say move on no one was hurt. If the was more force then it would be a definite citing. But meh lets move on.
     
  5. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Messages:
    3,997
    Location:
    Tewkesbury
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    I agreed before I saw this angle - it's way more than a trailing arm.
    NB. This is a static view, and you really shouldn't judge by that, but add it to the video we've all seen...
    [​IMG]

    I'd still leave it well alone (and Biggar last week) due to timing - which really shouldn't matter; but I really don't like the idea of something like this picking up a ban on the eve of the RWC
     
  6. Nudger

    Nudger Academy Player

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Yep but hit May late and high aswell
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,910
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Thats worse than i thought tbh, we will have to see what happens as thats clear contact to the head from the shoulder, a swinging arm and potentially late(though if it was a legal tackle he prob would have been commited so not late). Im not after a witch hunt and wouldnt complain if it was left alone but it is quite bad.
     
  8. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    34,722
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    Stephen Jones gave Youngs 8/10.

    That is all.
     
  9. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,454
    Location:
    Here be dragons!
    Country Flag:

    Wales

    Club or Nation:

    London Welsh

    WHAT!!!! If I’ve ever seen an Englishman hit a 10 outta 10 performance, it was he yesterday... may he forever play :D!
     
  10. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,910
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Lol
     
  11. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    431
    Country Flag:

    UK

    Club or Nation:

    London Wasps

    We will have to agree to disagree, IMO Cips is just better he creates the space sees it and exploits it far better than Ford, he’s also pretty solid in defence which was historically a weakness, he’s never been given a descent chance for England and unfortunately this World Cup would be his last opportunity.
     
  12. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    4,847
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    Correction, he was given a decent chance and then blew it by being a twat. He was then given another chance and blew it by being a twat. He was given a 3rd chance and blew it by being a twat. 3 coaches have now tried and dropped him. That should tell you there is something seriously wrong with him as a person. From what I've heard he is like Trump, he believes his own hype and thinks he is gods gift to rugby and having people fawning over him doing even the basics of a 10 only reinforces that.

    The long and short of it is he is a twat and his toxic attitude does more damage to the team than anything he can offer on field. Also the Cipriani is god attitude is kinda sickening, teams with Cipriani at 10 have been beaten by teams with both Ford and Farrell at 10. Also he does something that Ford and Farrell do but somehow it's amazing, to the extent a sodding pop pass to a forward running off his shoulder is praised as pure genius rather than something many capable forwards can do.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  13. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside First XV

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Messages:
    4,789
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    British Irish Lions

    Unfortunately, Farrell and Cips do not work/get on and communicate. Farrell is the main man and as long as he is there as captain Cips England career is effectively over.
     
  14. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    431
    Country Flag:

    UK

    Club or Nation:

    London Wasps

    To my knowledge he hasn’t been a ‘twat’ since his last cap.
    Oh dear, he was even voted player of the season by his peers, is that all part of his own hype....

    Agreed I wouldn’t be looking for them to play together, Cips could unlock defences where the others may be unable to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  15. j-dawg

    j-dawg Bench Player

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    647
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England


    If there is a personal issue behind this then I’d love to know the reasoning, if only for the gossip.
     
  16. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    4,847
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    Jones openly stated that if Cipriani was disruptive on his tour of SA he would be dropped. How many other players do you know who get told that? He was then dropped again, which supports the claims that he was swanning around thinking he was the best and rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way. So yes, it does indicated that he continued to be a twat because that is who he is and who he always will be. As long as his ego keeps getting stroked by his fan base who hype him well beyond a position he deserves, he will continue to believe it.

    He got voted player of the year by his peers, he has also had his peers claim he is toxic. I don't see Cipriani adding much to the side at all and I could see his "maverick" streak costing England games more often than it would win them, combined with how much friction he would cause in the squad, I think he would do more to damage team chemistry than improve it. I'd say Alex Goode is far more deserving as at least he doesn't appear to have attitude problems and has the same great club player but not shown it internationally situation.
     
  17. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    34,722
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    When have his teammate's called him toxic, outside of Lewis Moody's autobiography?

    He was very well liked at Sale
     
  18. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    431
    Country Flag:

    UK

    Club or Nation:

    London Wasps

    You are starting to contradict yourself now, if his peers voted him player of the season by definition it can’t be all his own hype, regardless of putting a caveat in there that they say he’s disruptive, whilst like Ollie I would like to know when this was confirmed and not simply speculation?
     
  19. Leinster Fan

    Leinster Fan First XV

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,983
    Location:
    Dublin
    Country Flag:

    Ireland

    Club or Nation:

    Leinster

    I really don't see what he would bring to this England team, even leaving aside his personality. He's a decent 10 but he's not anything special and not better than the two other 10s England have. He could be a decent third choice 10 if Jones thought he wanted one but Eddie clearly thinks he's better off only two outhalves then that's his call. It's pretty clear that the England setup thinks he doesn't have the right mindset to be a backup, I don't know the man so I'm not going to make claims about his personality or whatever but he has a reputation (fairly or unfairly) for poor offield behaviour and when you're stuck with that tag you have to convince your coaches otherwise and it's pretty clear that he didn't do that when he was given a chance in SA.

    I do feel like a lot of this has been stirred up by journos who know he's not actually good enough but are aware that he's easy to sell as a messiah so that if England fail in Japan you can guarantee that his name will be all over the papers the next few weeks, regardless of what England's actual issues were.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Reiser99

    Reiser99 First XV

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2,142
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Leicester

    What he brings is more the Finn Russell style of creatively. Very random and chaotic, which looks good when it works and horrible when it doesn't. Yes that could add something to England's attack, but it's not the way they play and so Cipriani's style isn't suited really.
     
  21. ncurd

    ncurd International

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    7,157
    Location:
    Gloucestershire
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    Let's be clear the injury he suffered in that Wasps V Bath Prem Semi-Final pretty much ended his international career all those years back. England had to look at other options and stuck with those. He also came back half the force he was and left English rugby it took a long time to get back to form and then return to England by which England had already entered the Ford/Farrell era.

    I think had Cips never been injured he would still likely be England's first choice fly half. As to whether he should now it's typical the best player is the one not playing syndrome. He's good enough to start for England but had he ever really pushed Ford or Farrell out by being miles better not really and Tigs' stats back that up. In equal measure Ford and Farrell have never really performed in a manner worthy of getting dropped. Most arguements are about who starts by style of play than anything else.

    Also there's the problem with off field stuff and sometimes supposed toxicity. He reminds of Kevin Pietersen in some ways only KP forced himself into the team by being too good to not play and even then in the end that wasn't enough to warrant keeping him around.
     
    • Like Like x 3
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page