[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs Ireland

[Scotty]

It's not like they've been picked just because they're Tigers. May is so good right now, Manu is a force, Ford was the best player at Tigers and is a great fly half. Youngs is... Experienced, and we're stuck with him.

Youngs aside, they're all top options in their positions.

Exactly i was going to post similar reply to this. The tigers the team were playing badly but ford stood out as a positive as did may, as you say manu is a force and is hard to leave out tbh but he needs to be used right. And youngs...is slow, average form and not a stsnd out tigers player but EJ forgot to train anyone else so you know...he's in.

Ford faz manu could be great or could fail... ford and manu are physical defenders but isolating them could be easy as both have a tendancy to fly up, couple of offloads and it could create space. But if aki just runs at ford and faz i think they will handle it well.

Manu and big joe in the wider channels with daly supporting could be dangerous, neither can you drift off of nor commit completly too as both do have decent hands.

Looking forward to this one and have pre booked the living room with the wife otherwise she'd be watching the real housewives of some s**t haha.

 

[TommiG88]

I'll be at the game. Really looking forward to it, hopefully the atmosphere is colossal.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Strong team. I am too looking forward to Curryhill combo and how it secures our ball and turnover ball. Should be a great game. Just hoping no more injuries.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Ford faz manu could be great or could fail... ford and manu are physical defenders but isolating them could be easy as both have a tendancy to fly up, couple of offloads and it could create space. But if aki just runs at ford and faz i think they will handle it well.

A good assessment, I love them as an attacking unit but in defence they feel veeeeeery disjointed. Farrell is not as good defensively as his reputation in my opinion, but he's better than Manu. Ford will give ground, that's established. Manu is a loose cannon. Overall my instinct is their styles don't suit each other, I feel Farrell-JJ could get the best out of Faz defensively, Farrell-Manu doesn't

The Currys are some of Sale's main lineout takers.

I say it everytime but the obsession with having a lineout specialist does my nut in.
I blame Tom Croft.


If you can get them in the air that's good enough for backrow, especially with how good Krutoje are.

There was a time a few years ago when conventional wisdom was that lineout ball was THE KING of first phase ball so having more/better jumpers than the oppo was seen as important. Not sure it's as true anymore, although there are still a lot of tries at all levels scored from line out mauls. (Too many tries in fact. There I said it)

It's not like they've been picked just because they're Tigers. May is so good right now, Manu is a force, Ford was the best player at Tigers and is a great fly half. Youngs is... Experienced, and we're stuck with him.

Youngs aside, they're all top options in their positions.

Yeah whatever Tigers' problems are, it's not those 3 players. Having a few good players doesn't negate the possibility of having a lot of mediocre ones and crap coaching.

 

[Rinkadink]

That is exactly why a shake up is required, they're only "top options" right now because of how much opportunity and leniency has been afforded to them over a prolonged period from conservatives who run the show. Things like Wade always more dangerous going forward than May for the running lightweight winger, Cipriani is the creative more open 10 that Ford aspires to be right now never mind if he was involved with international rugby more, Youngs is one of the worst 9s in the premiership bar the once every ten games performance he puts in and has been consistently shown up by others (Heinz looks great by comparison and he's just your average prem standard 9 who's somehow made it in)... Manu is a tricky one as he's a physical freak who would likely be there regardless with no obvious replacements but there are the likes of Devoto who haven't had a shot or been involved with the set up properly. Cole can't even scrummage like he used to (see Wales last week) and younger replacements from anywhere should have been trialled and trained.

"The best we have now" is the thing England should be trying to avoid. There is little excuse for England not to have the best or thereabouts man for man 1-23 (and beyond), but I don't think many would say they have right now going into this world cup. That's a failing and it's by and large the fault of those that run the show who aren't up to the task of managing top level professional rugby, just look at England's international record/successes and the RFU Championship.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Well, stepping back a bit everyone should really be questioning why so many players from the second-worst premiership side are even there in the first place.

Or maybe Tigers members should be questioning why a side that features so many England players is languishing so badly.

I've seen this line all over the usual Facebook pages and assumed that it was people with an agenda. As far as I can see, you can spin this any way you want to suit your chosen narrative. Maybe it is a reflection that Tigers' coaching is useless, maybe it's that Tigers choose to employ English players as their stars while others go after overseas players. If other players had received more game time in the position, I could sympathise with gripes about Youngs getting in, but given the situation that we are in right now, I don't see how anyone can try to spin this as some sort of pro-Tigers bias. Such attempts would be more credible if they mentioned who should be getting picked ahead of the Tigers contingent.

Given the amount of time that current internationals spend away from club duty, I suspect that part of the reason for Tigers' lowly position was their heavy reliance on current England players.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I say it everytime but the obsession with having a lineout specialist does my nut in.
I blame Tom Croft.

Tom Wood was pretty good too and I thought it was a forum rule that he's blamed for everything. No?

 

[Rinkadink]

Yeah whatever Tigers' problems are, it's not those 3 players.

I agree that Ford, Tuilagi and May are not problematic for Tigers. That's not the issue. In the current situation they are also the best options for England in this world cup. See above though.

For an example outside of Tigers (as it's not just about them) Daly is the starting 15 and hardly anyone thinks that is his best position, never mind best 15 in the country. Woodward was the best in that position for a year or so and never got a chance. There are other 15s too, including Brown.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Unironically saying Wade is a better international winger than May.
In 2019.

Yikes.


May is pretty comfortably our best back three player atm, weird hill to wanna die on.

The only Tigers player who is questionable is Youngs, and everyone is questioning it.

 

[Rinkadink]

Unironically saying Wade is a better international winger than May

That's not what I said at all.

Yikes. SMH, etc.

*edit to add

You don't think the inclusion of Cole is questionable in the least? I understand his inclusion but nailed on, dead cert best/2nd best England have at 3?

 

[Scotty]

That is exactly why a shake up is required, they're only "top options" right now because of how much opportunity and leniency has been afforded to them over a prolonged period from conservatives who run the show. Things like Wade always more dangerous going forward than May for the running lightweight winger, Cipriani is the creative more open 10 that Ford aspires to be right now never mind if he was involved with international rugby more, Youngs is one of the worst 9s in the premiership bar the once every ten games performance he puts in and has been consistently shown up by others (Heinz looks great by comparison and he's just your average prem standard 9 who's somehow made it in)... Manu is a tricky one as he's a physical freak who would likely be there regardless with no obvious replacements but there are the likes of Devoto who haven't had a shot or been involved with the set up properly. Cole can't even scrummage like he used to (see Wales last week) and younger replacements from anywhere should have been trialled and trained.

"The best we have now" is the thing England should be trying to avoid. There is little excuse for England not to have the best or thereabouts man for man 1-23 (and beyond), but I don't think many would say they have right now going into this world cup. That's a failing and it's by and large the fault of those that run the show who aren't up to the task of managing top level professional rugby, just look at England's international record/successes and the RFU Championship.

Wade vs may, 1 wade isnt a thing anymore but lets say he was. May has improved his game so much and earned his place hands down. Wade was great but did have failings.

Ive never been in the cips is god fan club, arguably worse in defence than ford, he consedes metres but makes the tackle where as cips has quite a few misses, yes cips can be magic but ford is a top quality 10 and id still out ford ahead but thats personal prefference,

Manu is big and had a bad time with injuries but came back and has performed. Devoto is good but manu needed gametime as he is ahead.

Youngs...no arguement from me on this one...huge failing at 9 for england.

And cole, excluded from international team and went on to play very well in a bad tigers team and earned his shot, personally id have preffered williams, but its not like williams didnt have game time, he just wasnt chosen.

This england team is the top team not just a top team right now, yes others could have been tried but for quite a while we were without Manu, Watson, Underhill so these players have earned back their place. Bar the likes of heinz francais and ludlam theres no one in there i didnt ecpect to go if fit and we have left home some capable back ups at home as injury cover.

So couple of positions we are abit light but not many and not in the 31. Apart from 9 although care, spencer and robson are available as far as i know.

 

[Reiser99]

May has also become very solid in the air, which with Daly at FB means less pressure on him.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The only Tigers player who is questionable is Youngs, and everyone is questioning it.

Except the one person whose opinion actually matters.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Except the one person whose opinion actually matters.

@The Alpha Bro ?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

@The Alpha Bro ?

Yup, and I give as many fucks as EJ appears to.

 

[Rinkadink]

Nice post Scotty, don't disagree with much of that (aside from Wade having similar opportunities and investment as May, but that ship has sailed a while back now) which is why England end up where they are. I think you sum it up brilliantly with;

This england team is the top team not just a top team right now

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I know I am gonna get a virtual plate thrown at me by Olyy, but 'fraid that for me is the one weakness of a Curryhill/Binny backrow: the lineout. Sure Curryhill are jumping options there and Binny keeps getting mentioned, but the reason being Pooper got exposed v ABs back in 2015 and they had Fardy as a third decent jumping option for them and Moore throwing in. ABs then had Read and Kaino, plus occasionally McCaw calling a few to himself at the front to mix it up. I was there at the RWC and could see how it destroyed the Wallaby lineout. Even ABs since Kaino retired are limited more at the lineout with Ardie/Cane/Read. That is why they are keen to get Squire back in the squad to give them an extra 6 option.

George is good, but I think slightly below Hartley in the consistency throwing stakes and LCD, yeah he was better in the last Wales game and still improving (did have one throw picked off as I recall), but this one should be a good test when he comes on. I think that is why Jones keeps picking Lawes or Itoje at 6 with the two other locks because at international level you need that 3rd or 4th reliable option to mix things up.

 

[bushytop]

Lineouts are overrated

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

As long as it adds up to 13. Clearly the ideal is to field two 6.5s!

Fark don't say that! We will end up with an inside centre and a loosehead playing flankers!

Pretty strong team although Youngs will slow down everything. I hope that we intend to utilise Billy differently this time as Underhill and Curry and both quite happy to carry. Maybe the plan is for Billy to be utilised more as a decoy in this game and to come off after 50 to be replaced by Wilson. Alternatively Jones may simply be batshit insane and drive a key player into the dirt so they are knackered when it matters most.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fark don't say that! We will end up with an inside centre and a loosehead playing flankers!

Barritt + Mako > Wood + Robshaw