[RWC19 Warm-Up] - England vs Ireland

[BPM]

I know I am gonna get a virtual plate thrown at me by Olyy, but 'fraid that for me is the one weakness of a Curryhill/Binny backrow: the lineout. Sure Curryhill are jumping options there and Binny keeps getting mentioned, but the reason being Pooper got exposed v ABs back in 2015 and they had Fardy as a third decent jumping option for them and Moore throwing in. ABs then had Read and Kaino, plus occasionally McCaw calling a few to himself at the front to mix it up. I was there at the RWC and could see how it destroyed the Wallaby lineout. Even ABs since Kaino retired are limited more at the lineout with Ardie/Cane/Read. That is why they are keen to get Squire back in the squad to give them an extra 6 option.

George is good, but I think slightly below Hartley in the consistency throwing stakes and LCD, yeah he was better in the last Wales game and still improving (did have one throw picked off as I recall), but this one should be a good test when he comes on. I think that is why Jones keeps picking Lawes or Itoje at 6 with the two other locks because at international level you need that 3rd or 4th reliable option to mix things up.

Our lineout is definitely weakened with that back row, but I think Eddie is keen to try it knowing that we're going to be playing on hard, fast tracks where we need mobile flankers who can play a higher tempo game. Speed to the breakdown will be key.

I think Eddie wanted Shields as that third jumper, but even if he hadn't been injured, I'm not convinced he offered enough elsewhere to be selected ahead of Wilson. The game last weekend clearly showed that playing a lock at 6 compromises too much at the breakdown, so we can't really win.

I think there's always a trade-off somewhere. For example, Fardy made the 'Pooper' back row stronger in the lineout, but it had very little carrying threat.

Personally I think Ireland's lineout is a touch overrated. Their jumpers are excellent, possibly world class, but Best's throwing isn't. Neither is Cronin's.

 

[ncurd]

Lineouts are overrated

Just chuck to the opposing hooker right?

 

[bushytop]

Just chuck to the opposing hooker right?

Precisely

 

[big ginger 8]

Lineouts are overrated

In keeping with internet custom I must tell you they are in fact underrated.

Seriously though in a game where possession and territory are so important a strong lineout can't be underestimated, nevermind the fact it's one of the few occasions the opposition have to give you space.

 

[bushytop]

In keeping with internet custom I must tell you they are in fact underrated.

Seriously though in a game where possession and territory are so important a strong lineout can't be underestimated, nevermind the fact it's one of the few occasions the opposition have to give you space.

So was being semi-sarcastic due to the fact that with the odd exception here and there, Wales has never really had a great line out. Hence the fact that we VERY rarely kick the ball to find touch and rather go down field.

The semi-serious part though is the sheer amount of breakdowns in a game compared to line-outs and therefore my personal opinion is a competitive back-row at rucks and mauls outweighs a back-row who can add lineouts options.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Our lineout is definitely weakened with that back row, but I think Eddie is keen to try it knowing that we're going to be playing on hard, fast tracks where we need mobile flankers who can play a higher tempo game. Speed to the breakdown will be key.

I think Eddie wanted Shields as that third jumper, but even if he hadn't been injured, I'm not convinced he offered enough elsewhere to be selected ahead of Wilson. The game last weekend clearly showed that playing a lock at 6 compromises too much at the breakdown, so we can't really win.

I think there's always a trade-off somewhere. For example, Fardy made the 'Pooper' back row stronger in the lineout, but it had very little carrying threat.

Personally I think Ireland's lineout is a touch overrated. Their jumpers are excellent, possibly world class, but Best's throwing isn't. Neither is Cronin's.

I get your point BPM, but still never underestimate a good line out and how effective it can be regardless of how fast and hard the grounds are in Japan come September/October. It's still a good option to go when trying to get field position and England's mauls from the line out weren't good v Wales on Saturday.

Good point about the lack of carrying threat from Fardy/Pooper combo. That is not the case with Binny and Mako to come on later. And if Curryhill can improve England's breakdown then it will help secure us a lot of possession.

Thankfully Best can be a bit wobbly come line out time, so hopefully Krutoje can pinch a few. But still Ireland have Henderson/Klein (Toner is definitely their best line out option and he is due to come on in the second half off the bench) for locks and then POM, who is world class line out jumper. Sander and VDF I haven't seen jump as much; Stander more so. Still they have at least 3 decent options for Best to time and hit his jumpers. Await to see how Curryhill/Krutoje and Lawes/Wilson fare comes line out time.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So was being semi-sarcastic due to the fact that with the odd exception here and there, Wales has never really had a great line out. Hence the fact that we VERY rarely kick the ball to find touch and rather go down field.

The semi-serious part though is the sheer amount of breakdowns in a game compared to line-outs and therefore my personal opinion is a competitive back-row at rucks and mauls outweighs a back-row who can add lineouts options.

Ideally you would have both though right? still so far the best balance back row in RWC so far has been Kaino, McCaw and Read winning back to back RWCs, which were monstrous at the breakdown and added greatly to the line out.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So was being semi-sarcastic due to the fact that with the odd exception here and there, Wales has never really had a great line out. Hence the fact that we VERY rarely kick the ball to find touch and rather go down field.

The semi-serious part though is the sheer amount of breakdowns in a game compared to line-outs and therefore my personal opinion is a competitive back-row at rucks and mauls outweighs a back-row who can add lineouts options.

Well true except that 95% of those "rucks" are straightforward uncontested recycling.

Both are very important facets.

 

[bushytop]

Ideally you would have both though right?

What is this rugby utopia you speak of? Yeah of course that would be ideal but sometimes (most of the time actually) perfection just isn't an option.

 

[BPM]

Exactly. I don't think there's that many perfectly balanced back rows going in to this competition.

SA's is about the best for balance IMO. PSdT, Kolisi and Vermeulen has a bit of everything.

It's not that clear with the rest.

As someone said earlier in the post, NZ are still experimenting and/or hoping Squire will make himself available. Australia are stuck between options. They either go with 'Pooper', or don't play one of them and lose one of their best players. Either way, they probably have Salakai-Loto at 6 who isn't anywhere near as good as Fardy was. France change it every match (although the three the played against Scotland were apparently excellent). Ireland are missing Leavy, who is arguably their best back row and seem unsure on Stander or Conan at 8. Wales are a bit better off, but Moriarty is nowhere near as good as Faletau.

My point is that virtually everyone is compromising somewhere either due to injury or not having the players to fulfil each of the ideal roles in a balanced back row.

 

[bushytop]

Well true except that 95% of those "rucks" are straightforward uncontested recycling.

Both are very important facets.

Hence why I was only semi-serious.

Though you don't have to contest for a turnover every time at rucks, just slowing the ball down a second or too can work wonders for your defensive organisation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I really don't get the issue.
We still have 4 jumpers. You don't need all 4 to be lineout specialists - we've two world-class lineout forwards and two serviceable jumpers. As long as Curry and Underhill are options it keeps the opposition watching them at the lineout and causes more guessing in what the call is gonna be.

It's not like we've got itoje and no one else so they know just to watch him.


The improvement at the breakdown is more than enough to offset losing playing a bloody lock at blindside again.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How often has the lack of an extra jumper really cost us in games? How often has poor play at the ruck cost us games? I think that should tell you everything you need to know about what we need from our flankers first and foremost. Other teams that resource the breakdown better or have numerous good players there may want their flankers to fulfill a different role but we NEED good breakdown operators. There is no 2 ways about this any more, we are losing too many games because we just lose the ball to a cheap turnover and are then incapable of getting the damn thing back if the opposition don't kick it away.

 

[Scotty]

So line outs.....having 2 strong jumpers and curry who as said jumps alot at sale so he is a good option.

I know top level its different but 2 good jumpers will be the target most of the time, having a competent 3rd would be enough if it means we have 2 flanker that are strong at the break down, decent carrier. The break down and open play are more important IMO.

What i want is a good flanker that can be a decent lineout option, not a good line out option who can be a decent flanker.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I get your point BPM, but still never underestimate a good line out and how effective it can be regardless of how fast and hard the grounds are in Japan come September/October. It's still a good option to go when trying to get field position and England's mauls from the line out weren't good v Wales on Saturday.

Good point about the lack of carrying threat from Fardy/Pooper combo. That is not the case with Binny and Mako to come on later. And if Curryhill can improve England's breakdown then it will help secure us a lot of possession.

Thankfully Best can be a bit wobbly come line out time, so hopefully Krutoje can pinch a few. But still Ireland have Henderson/Klein (Toner is definitely their best line out option and he is due to come on in the second half off the bench) for locks and then POM, who is world class line out jumper. Sander and VDF I haven't seen jump as much; Stander more so. Still they have at least 3 decent options for Best to time and hit his jumpers. Await to see how Curryhill/Krutoje and Lawes/Wilson fare comes line out time.

I think our offensive lineout (i.e. our own throw) is overrated, none of our hookers are consistently good throwers and we're overreliant on Toner. Our defensive lineout, lead by POM, is very good though so I'd hope we can steal a few of your throws on Saturday. I'd tend to think that a specialist jumper in the backrow is helpful but not necessary though, so long as some of them can at least take one or two balls a game it's fine. For the weekend we have a decent pairing as well as POM who's possibly the best lineout backrow in the world right now, and Stander who's a half-decent jumper. I can't remember Josh ever jumping but I luld be wrong. We have two locks on the bench (Beirne is covering backrow) as well so I'd fancy us to have the edge.

 

[BPM]

All completely fair points I would agree with.

 

[spartan32]

Interesting to see people turn on Manu all of a sudden. I still say he's talismanic and generates concern for any defence. He's a unique entity and with that always comes so downside, but surely more than weighed off by the upside?

State of affairs at 9 is sad, and I'm not sure how we ended up here? Why was Care just dumped? I never noticed a distinct drop in form and he always seemed to change things up when coming off the bench? Anyway, with so many other options in the Prem this just has to be down to short sightedness by all. However I would say that Young's seems to have sped his delivery up a bit.

The line out question is an interesting one. Line outs are one of the best platforms to attack from, if coupled with a decent driving maul, which is supposed to be something England are very good at. We certainly have the lumps to make an impact. In that sense good to have a 3rd option, but George throws great arrows and if you have some imaginative calls, move the jumpers around lots and cause confusion, then we should be fine. We also need to mix up what we do with the pill once we've caught it. Again George showed what he can do down the short side in the last game. More of that sort of thing. Not just, catch, drive, stall, shift to backs with no momentum.

And on the nite of mauls. Is it just me or does Young's have no idea what he's supposed to be doing at the back fo them. On several occasions he's dropped the ball, and on others he fails to identify its time for it to come out and let's the fatties bundle it to ground losing possession. He needs to get a bloody grip!

 

[Jashay]

And on the nite of mauls. Is it just me or does Young's have no idea what he's supposed to be doing at the back fo them. On several occasions he's dropped the ball, and on others he fails to identify its time for it to come out and let's the fatties bundle it to ground losing possession. He needs to get a bloody grip!

Apart from discipline (there's one for England thread bingo already) this was the only thing I found really annoying from the Wales game. Youngs buggered that up no less than three times. I could be charitable and let him off the one at the end of the game, as it went down really quickly, but still.

 

[Scotty]

Interesting to see people turn on Manu all of a sudden. I still say he's talismanic and generates concern for any defence. He's a unique entity and with that always comes so downside, but surely more than weighed off by the upside?

I voiced concerns over manu's defence but that wasnt me turning on him. If he is fit then he makes the first team. His defence wasnt noticeably bad in the 6N and had a strong partnership with slade. Could be the same with JJ. My issue was more with this partnership (that im excited to see and have been looking forward too) but faz and manu together could be exploited in defence becUse of their defencive styles that im not sure compliment each other.

 

[big ginger 8]

So was being semi-sarcastic due to the fact that with the odd exception here and there, Wales has never really had a great line out. Hence the fact that we VERY rarely kick the ball to find touch and rather go down field.

The semi-serious part though is the sheer amount of breakdowns in a game compared to line-outs and therefore my personal opinion is a competitive back-row at rucks and mauls outweighs a back-row who can add lineouts options.

As pointed out it doesn't have to be one or the other and I wasn't talking about it in relation to the breakdown. Just the comments that lineouts are overrated with no mention of the breakdown. Also I'd say say being good at mauls is part of being a good lineout forward. But mostly I think fans underrate them because of the degree of control you have over them and how you can manipulate the opposition for the first few breakdowns, most people think of attacking using the maul but knowing where the opposition is going to be and having the space to operate is invaluable. Admittedly this feeling does probably come from having the coach who best knows how to utilise such strike moves.