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[RWC2019][Pool A] Round 4 - Japan vs. Scotland (13/10/2019)

The Alpha Bro

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@Grizwald
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3855

Based purely on place of birth (a terrible measure)
Tonga: 17
Japan: 16
Samoa: 16
USA: 15
Scotland: 14
Australia: 12
Italy: 8
Wales: 8
Overall mean: 6.9
England: 6
France: 6
Median: 5.5
Ireland: 5
Canada: 4
Fiji: 4
New Zealand: 3
Georgia: 1
Namibia: 1
Russia: 1
South Africa: 1
Argentina: 0
Uruguay: 0
But Ethnic Slur Man on this forum had me thinking Ireland were the root of all evil?
 

chris walker

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First of all what a fantastic game to finish the pool stages on and a great win for Japan, for Scotland on the other hand surely this has to be the end of all the talk of how they’re this improving side and how they can beat anyone on their day and how every year will be the year that they win the grand slam. I just think that they need to start setting themselves realistic targets, like for example before the World Cup they were all coming out and saying that they’re going to show who the real Scotland is and that their target was to win the World Cup and i know you’ve got to go in believing you can win but surely they should have focussed most of their attention on that Ireland game and then went from there and as we clearly saw they didn’t. I also think that they have a lot over over hyped players, realistically what have Finn Russell and Stuart Hogg done this World Cup? Jonny Gray is one of the most over rated players in the world, yes I agree that he gets through a lot of work and makes a good amount of tackles but I rarely see any dominant collisions from him on either side of the ball. This really just caps off a bad year for the Scottish national sides, the u20’s were relegated to the trophy competition and now they’ve been dumped out at the group stages, unless there are major changes I don’t see Scotland being anymore than an 8-12 ranked team
 

Tallshort

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First of all what a fantastic game to finish the pool stages on and a great win for Japan, for Scotland on the other hand surely this has to be the end of all the talk of how they’re this improving side and how they can beat anyone on their day and how every year will be the year that they win the grand slam. I just think that they need to start setting themselves realistic targets, like for example before the World Cup they were all coming out and saying that they’re going to show who the real Scotland is and that their target was to win the World Cup and i know you’ve got to go in believing you can win but surely they should have focussed most of their attention on that Ireland game and then went from there and as we clearly saw they didn’t. I also think that they have a lot over over hyped players, realistically what have Finn Russell and Stuart Hogg done this World Cup? Jonny Gray is one of the most over rated players in the world, yes I agree that he gets through a lot of work and makes a good amount of tackles but I rarely see any dominant collisions from him on either side of the ball. This really just caps off a bad year for the Scottish national sides, the u20’s were relegated to the trophy competition and now they’ve been dumped out at the group stages, unless there are major changes I don’t see Scotland being anymore than an 8-12 ranked team
Finn Russell is only as good as the platform the forwards give him. I watched him against Tigers last year behind a dominant Racing pack and he was sublime. For 25 minutes Scotland showed some good rugby when their pack got on top otherwise they were chasing the shadows of a very skillful and fit Japanese team who have been training together for over 200 days and also beat Ireland in their group.
 

powerfulduck

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First of all what a fantastic game to finish the pool stages on and a great win for Japan, for Scotland on the other hand surely this has to be the end of all the talk of how they’re this improving side and how they can beat anyone on their day and how every year will be the year that they win the grand slam. I just think that they need to start setting themselves realistic targets, like for example before the World Cup they were all coming out and saying that they’re going to show who the real Scotland is and that their target was to win the World Cup and i know you’ve got to go in believing you can win but surely they should have focussed most of their attention on that Ireland game and then went from there and as we clearly saw they didn’t. I also think that they have a lot over over hyped players, realistically what have Finn Russell and Stuart Hogg done this World Cup? Jonny Gray is one of the most over rated players in the world, yes I agree that he gets through a lot of work and makes a good amount of tackles but I rarely see any dominant collisions from him on either side of the ball. This really just caps off a bad year for the Scottish national sides, the u20’s were relegated to the trophy competition and now they’ve been dumped out at the group stages, unless there are major changes I don’t see Scotland being anymore than an 8-12 ranked team
Replaced by Japan in the U20 trophy to
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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realistically what have Finn Russell and Stuart Hogg done this World Cup?
Answer: they have been neutered by Townsend's selections and tactics. It is hard for Hogg to make an impact when you are kicking the ball away so much.

I agree on the rest of your post, Scotland have only shown signs of developing their own talent in the past few years, with a half dozen or so of the youngsters in today's 23. So they are playing catch-up against their peers. While Ireland and Wales have project players to augment their squads, Scotland have been guilty in the past of effectively depending on them . You will achieve little relying on the cast-offs of other unions.

To my mind the best comparisons for Scotland are Australia and Japan. Ordinary packs with dangerous attacking backs. Whereas Joseph and Cheika will double down on their strengths by playing at pace to try and give their backs chances before the opposing defence has got organised, Townsend has moved away from that. Laidlaw could be great behind a strong pack, but does anyone see him fitting Japan better than Nagare or Australia better than the equally mobile Genia? No? Then why does anyone (including Townsend) think he would suit Scotland?

Townsend is on record as saying he is moving away from the pace style and that tactical, territorial play is the key for success - despite the game at Twickenham where Finn ripped up Townsends territorial tactics up at half time providing possibly the clearest possible evidence to the contrary.

For a club coach who can buy in talent, no problem. But for an international coach you surely need to tailor your tactics around what you have available. The pacey game is high risk and you can end up looking foolish, but Cheika and Joseph know that trying to keep the tempo high is the only chance they have with the players available; and that a risky, outside chance is better than playing away from your strengths and playing safe. The only time Scotland tried to play with pace in this tournament was the last thirty against Japan, but that was with untested combinations of players playing out of position.

Scotland are developing youth talent on a more consistent basis now and have two competitive professional teams and a host of talented centres (Scott, Bennett, Dunbar, Huw) that Townsend for some reason elected not to pick over Johnson and Harris. So the picture is not all doom and gloom despite the u20's hiccup. If he is open minded and able to reflect that the decisions he has made has coincided with Scotland's decline, then all is not lost. He is a smart cookie in some ways and who knows what Wales and Ireland will look like with new coaches.

But yes, the overriding lesson is that you must never ditch a coach who is doing well regardless of who else might be available.
 

Gena_ZA

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Deflowered.. by Japan
 

Old Hooker

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Well someone’s been sent homeward tae think again.

Stonking game. Glad it went ahead!

Well played Japan and well played the Japanese crowd - loved their enthusiasm.
 

Yoshimitsu

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Yeah that's going to be unpopular with our Scottish brethren.

Gray may have 100% tackle completion (The argument used for Lions selection) but he's just not that good. Russell is great on his day but passing to Harris. Well that ends badly doesn't it? As for Hogg he's good at chatting and slapping people on the back but had approximately 0% impact on the game.

I loved the 80 /early 90's Scotland. Abrasive reavers. Now it's "We're just about to show what we can do" then failure.

Ireland destroyed them and they didn't seem to care. Japan played in a way that tier 1 teams struggle with and again Scotland couldn't find a way.

As I said the Scotland of Finlay Calder, John Jeffery, David Sole seems a lifetime away. Now we have pretenders and chat. That doesn't get it done.

Personally I hope for a Scottish revival. It's a great country with great people and a monumental rugby history.
 

bushytop

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It’s a tough one with Scotland as Vern Cotter definitely made serious progress with them and I do believe that if he had stayed in charge until now they would’ve qualified through the group (be it at Ireland or Japan’s expense).

Toonie had/has this romantic idea about the game and he justifies it by saying it best suits the players he has available. Well I disagree and reckon Vern, Schmidt, Warren or Eddie would get more w’s playing a more ‘boring’/pragmatic style with those same players if I’m honest... while Toonie is just building the appropriate narrative to justify the use of ‘his’ (frankly crazy under the circumstances) ideology.

I take no pleasure in ragging on him or the Scots too much right now but... I would simply judge Gregor as a fantastic Backs/Attack coach as long as he was part of a coaching team that would be wrangled by pragmatism.
 
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Reiser99

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Thing is this Scottish Squad are a hell of a lot better than the sides of 10-15 years ago that were basically competing with Italy to avoid the wooden spoon. It was one of the main worries of having relegation, that you would lose the calcutta cup and other derbies of the home nations. They've definitely improved from there. However they definitely got too big for their boots and it was back in 2015 they said they were going to win the 6N's (they actually came bottom) and World Cup. I think it was 2017 when I thought they actually could win it and they just feel short and they tied for second on points difference, which coincidentally was Cotter's last tournament. However instead of giving themselves clear goals like winning 4/5 games and coming second, they keep creating grand targets of winning tournaments that haven't won before. I have no problem with ambition, but they keep talking as though they should win and should be competing at the highest level when actually they haven't earned the right. Feels like they need to look at where they are instead of where they want to be.
 

Shimano

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watching this game me much pleasure

the only thing I think would givn me more pleasure was if world rugby had cancelled the game, and the scotty suits used the courts to force it to be played.
 

higgik

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Answer: they have been neutered by Townsend's selections and tactics. It is hard for Hogg to make an impact when you are kicking the ball away so much.

I agree on the rest of your post, Scotland have only shown signs of developing their own talent in the past few years, with a half dozen or so of the youngsters in today's 23. So they are playing catch-up against their peers. While Ireland and Wales have project players to augment their squads, Scotland have been guilty in the past of effectively depending on them . You will achieve little relying on the cast-offs of other unions.

To my mind the best comparisons for Scotland are Australia and Japan. Ordinary packs with dangerous attacking backs. Whereas Joseph and Cheika will double down on their strengths by playing at pace to try and give their backs chances before the opposing defence has got organised, Townsend has moved away from that. Laidlaw could be great behind a strong pack, but does anyone see him fitting Japan better than Nagare or Australia better than the equally mobile Genia? No? Then why does anyone (including Townsend) think he would suit Scotland?

Townsend is on record as saying he is moving away from the pace style and that tactical, territorial play is the key for success - despite the game at Twickenham where Finn ripped up Townsends territorial tactics up at half time providing possibly the clearest possible evidence to the contrary.

For a club coach who can buy in talent, no problem. But for an international coach you surely need to tailor your tactics around what you have available. The pacey game is high risk and you can end up looking foolish, but Cheika and Joseph know that trying to keep the tempo high is the only chance they have with the players available; and that a risky, outside chance is better than playing away from your strengths and playing safe. The only time Scotland tried to play with pace in this tournament was the last thirty against Japan, but that was with untested combinations of players playing out of position.

Scotland are developing youth talent on a more consistent basis now and have two competitive professional teams and a host of talented centres (Scott, Bennett, Dunbar, Huw) that Townsend for some reason elected not to pick over Johnson and Harris. So the picture is not all doom and gloom despite the u20's hiccup. If he is open minded and able to reflect that the decisions he has made has coincided with Scotland's decline, then all is not lost. He is a smart cookie in some ways and who knows what Wales and Ireland will look like with new coaches.

But yes, the overriding lesson is that you must never ditch a coach who is doing well regardless of who else might be available.
Be interesting to see Hogg in an Exeter team with Nowell and Slade, behind their pack. It might show a different Hogg to the one seen this month.
 

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scotland shouldve sued. they wouldve won that
 

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In other and far more important news, this game cost me my place at the top of the Superbru table so Japan can f*** off.
 

BrokenWing

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*looks at list of English gowls, realises that I have 50 pieces of paper with them written down*
Well of course you do, we have a much bigger pool of gowls to pick from.

I listened to the game on 5 Live and the commentator was saying something about how difficult it is for the hooker to strike the ball.... I'm not surprised considering most of the put ins seem to get fed between the props legs.
 
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scotty507

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I rememer reading words to the effect Of 'this game better go ahead so Scotland can put Japan in their place'.... well that went well and even if Scotland cameback happened with one more try as vs England, would still have been going home on a draw.

Fair play Japan, beat 2 tier 1 and 2 tier 2.

A well coached clearly tier 2 Japan beach a not so great South africa team last world cup and now a well coached borderline tier 1 world cup team are playing a strong SA team. I think SA must be clear favourites but Japan will give them a run for their money as they are their but beating 2 tier 1 teams. They play fast flowing rugby, good at the breakdown and some talent outwide. This with home advantage may give the SA power game some trouble if they can withstand the physicality of SA.
 

higgik

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If I were the Rugby Championship I'd get Japan in asap!
Would make sense as 4 games in 5 weeks. Which would also create space for Bledisloe and other extras.
 
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