[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[ncurd]

Caveating this entire post with if it happened.

On the Curry thing, Mbonambi is absolutely wrong. Is it as bad as the reversal? No. But its still unacceptable for any player to bring another's race into it.

Not least because it makes more acceptable for players and fans to think they can hurl racial abuse at Mbonambi and absolutely expect it now the next time he plays England.

So yes it's not as bad but it just open the floodgates for far worse.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Agree the *if* caveat of course.

Worse than Marler's imo - it the roles were reversed would you want the same ban length?

It should be in line with whatever World rugby rules state. Which I think may have changed since Marler IDK.
I don't think it's in the serious bracket personally, especially if no evidence on audio of it.


People saying Curry would be fired for it may be right but that would be up to the RFU and Sale not world rugby.

 

[Saintjay]

It should be in line with whatever World rugby rules state. Which I think may have changed since Marler IDK.
I don't think it's in the serious bracket personally, especially if no evidence on audio of it.


People saying Curry would be fired for it may be right but that would be up to the RFU and Sale not world rugby.

If Curry had did it in reverse and it was proven to be true. I have no doubt he'd be lucky to play for England again and Sale would be under serious pressure to terminate his contract.

Racism is racism as some have said. You can't have degrees of it, or claim that some racism is better/more acceptable / worse than that racism. When people think or define racism as not that serious, or casual i do wonder what they think is an acceptable level. Because i feel racism will always be tolerated with that thinking.

 

[ncurd]

Just to say casual racism is appalling. Its not a definition where people think there is an acceptable level but when it's so ingrained in their psyche they don't realise they are doing it. It's shocking as hell when it happens.

Anyway in my mind there is no acceptable racism. Bit there isn't a one size fits all aspect to the punishment.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's the normalisation of such behaviour that needs to be stopped at source otherwise it's one rule for one rule for another.

 

[LIONSxv]

That is most of your backline, TBH...
You'll have to find a new 10 - 12 - 13 combo and not a lot of obvious candidates ?

Smith, Kelly, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant (if allowed). Manu has played about 7 games in the last 2 years and is not the force he once was.
Farrell has a very good game last night but hasn't played well for England for years.

I think you are confusing who has started in the WC with irreplaceable players. We don't have many of them anyway

 

[corny]

I mean for me there is a difference between racial prejudice and racisim. Neither is right but it's not equal as some people like to try and make it
Again for me personally and my thought system at least, Rugby is still a vastly majority white person game and the people in charge are vastly white (look at swing low sweet chariot) and (again personally) I feel that Racism generally needs to come from a position of power be is systematically, culturally or historically when it doesn't it comes more racial prejudice.

Obviously he shouldn't have said it but the faux outrage of it is a bit erm OTT, also suspect this is gonna end up in the political thread lol

The distinction you make between is racial prejudice and racism is ridiculous. What power dynamic exists between Mbonambi and Curry? They're two lads playing a game of rugby.

The law or the rules of by which we live shouldn't be governed by such arbitrary nonsense. Curry could be deeply offended by what was said or he could laugh it off. The same is true for Mbonambi if the shoe were on the other foot. We should hold them both to the same standard. Whatever it may be. It's as simple as that.

If you believe that there is a distinction, then all you're doing is excusing a shift in the opposite direction of the supposed power dynamic. Giving groups weapons to attack and even the score as it were. That's not equitable or something that should be casually excused.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

In South Africa, black people are the majority and now have more power politically. By the power argument, a black South African racially abusing a white minority is racism whilst a white person racially abusing a black person would just be prejudice.

Somehow I don't see there ever being a case in which people who make this argument will ever accept there is a scenario in which the white person is not in power and therefore can be racially abused.

Racism is racism. Equality means equal punishment for equal crime. It is just Tom Curry's word but we should not normalise complete double standards based on race when it comes to racism.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

In South Africa, black people are the majority and now have more power politically. By the power argument, a black South African racially abusing a white minority is racism whilst a white person racially abusing a black person would just be prejudice.

Somehow I don't see there ever being a case in which people who make this argument will ever accept there is a scenario in which the white person is not in power and therefore can be racially abused.

Racism is racism. Equality means equal punishment for equal crime. It is just Tom Curry's word but we should not normalise complete double standards based on race when it comes to racism.

I am against the words of the South African pillar but we must nevertheless admit that the Europeans have done a lot of harm, a lot of segregationism and this has left a lot of traces, hatred, resentment and stigma among the black community.

Still today in the minds of white South Africans and it is unfortunate to speak like this, apartheid is necessary in South Africa and must be reimposed.
The racial problem in South Africa is very complex!

If Mbonambi really insulted Tom Curry's skin color, he must be questioned and sanctioned if the facts are proven.

Humanity is not ready to get along, it would take a miracle for us to be able to understand each other by accepting differences in customs and skin color.

In 1995, there were players who never hid and who publicly refused to allow black players to wear the national team jersey. For almost a year, South African players refused to speak with Chester Williams because of apartheid...

 

[Grizwald]

What are peoples thoughts on the rebuild? All the pundits I've heard are keep the older lads and challenge for the 6N.

In doing so you're reducing the number of caps the new generation can get before the next rugby world cup.

I reckon a drip feed might be best. Eddie Jones used the RWC as an excuse for everything in between I'd really like to see England challenge for a 6N. France and Ireland aren't going to weaken post world cup so it won't be easy.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I am against the words of the South African pillar but we must nevertheless admit that the Europeans have done a lot of harm, a lot of segregationism and this has left a lot of traces, hatred, resentment and stigma among the black community.

Still today in the minds of white South Africans and it is unfortunate to speak like this, apartheid is necessary in South Africa and must be reimposed.
The racial problem in South Africa is very complex!

If Mbonambi really insulted Tom Curry's skin color, he must be questioned and sanctioned if the facts are proven.

Humanity is not ready to get along, it would take a miracle for us to be able to understand each other by accepting differences in customs and skin color.

In 1995, there were players who never hid and who publicly refused to allow black players to wear the national team jersey. For almost a year, South African players refused to speak with Chester Williams because of apartheid...

So a white south African doing something bad justifies then treating any other white person from a completely different country badly? Nobody is denying history but applying shared guilt to an entire race is still racism.

Germans did some horrific things, would that justify making a bunch of hateful comments about Germans?

This is what I'm getting at. If you have black people in charge, in power and persecuting white people, there is always an excuse for how really the white person can't be a victim, even as they are stripped of all their property, assaulted and driven out of the country. How long does historical grievance provide cover for the other side to be racist? Do they have a free pass until they have dished out the same amount of persecution as they received or something?

 

[LIONSxv]

What are peoples thoughts on the rebuild? All the pundits I've heard are keep the older lads and challenge for the 6N.

In doing so you're reducing the number of caps the new generation can get before the next rugby world cup.

I reckon a drip feed might be best. Eddie Jones used the RWC as an excuse for everything in between I'd really like to see England challenge for a 6N. France and Ireland aren't going to weaken post world cup so it won't be easy.

Rebuild starting now. That's what EJ failed to do after the last WC
Ireland will have to change due to the age profile of their squad. As they are smart they will do that straight after the WC to give you get players the requisite caps to be ready for the next wc

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Reports in SA media saying Mbonambi was referring to the ball being on the white side which would in English literally sound precisely like "white ****", "kant" meaning side. Wit being 1 syllable and Engelse being 3 syllables. Very probable just lost in translation. We'll have to see if there video showing context. Might be Mbonambi dodging but just as easily might be Curry misreading the intention. Question is whether Mbonambi is speaking Afrikaans for the benefit of his team mates or speaking directly at Curry.

 

[ncurd]

Worth noting on the racism side about backgrounds Mbonambi was born just as Apartheid was finally being dismantled in SA. His parents and family would of still been victims of it.

Reports in SA media saying Mbonambi was referring to the ball being on the white side which would in English literally sound precisely like "white ****", "kant" meaning side. Wit being 1 syllable and Engelse being 3 syllables. Very probable just lost in translation. We'll have to see if there video showing context. Might be Mbonambi dodging but just as easily might be Curry misreading the intention. Question is whether Mbonambi is speaking Afrikaans for the benefit of his team mates or speaking directly at Curry.

I hope this end up being the truth of it. I also hope any investigation is done with swiftly (like next day or two).

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Worth noting on the racism side about backgrounds Mbonambi was born just as Apartheid was finally being dismantled in SA. His parents and family would of still been victims of it.I hope this end up being the truth of it. I also hope any investigation is done with swiftly (like next day or two).

That would be my hope as well so that it can be dealt with or dismissed. There are so many angles of TV coverage I'm positive that context can be reliably established. Personally I am prepared to believe that Curry simply misconstrued Mbonambis words or rather the meaning if not the sound if simply because of his track record and the sensitivity we have in SA regarding racial slurs.

 

[ncurd]

That would be my hope as well so that it can be dealt with or dismissed. There are so many angles of TV coverage I'm positive that context can be reliably established. Personally I am prepared to believe that Curry simply misconstrued Mbonambis words or rather the meaning if not the sound if simply because of his track record and the sensitivity we have in SA regarding racial slurs.

On the other side if has done wrong, NZ shouldn't be playing a player who shouldn't be on the pitch and SA should have time to call up a real hooker (although that's a mistake of their own making). If SA go on to win and he subsequently gets a ban all hell will break lose.

I'm hoping it's a misunderstanding we know Curry went to speak to BOK after the incident so the timestamp should be clear. The footage should be found today. If nothings clear we take Mbonambi word for it. And he apologises anyway to Tom for the misunderstanding and Tom accepts.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Reports in SA media saying Mbonambi was referring to the ball being on the white side which would in English literally sound precisely like "white ****", "kant" meaning side. Wit being 1 syllable and Engelse being 3 syllables. Very probable just lost in translation. We'll have to see if there video showing context. Might be Mbonambi dodging but just as easily might be Curry misreading the intention. Question is whether Mbonambi is speaking Afrikaans for the benefit of his team mates or speaking directly at Curry.

The alleged refusal to shake hands afterwards, and fact that didn't get cleared up instantly makes me doubt that, but maybe.

If that's the case, then it can be cleared up quickly

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

we take Mbonambi word for it.

He's not said anything though as far as I can see? It's just SA media that have come up with it?

May have missed something though

 

[saulan]

Really wanna know what he allegedly said and what the sentence was. I've seen "die bal is by die wit kant " ( the ball is on the white side/England side). I just struggle to see Mbonambi calling him a white **** as it's really not a South African style insult, but I can 100% see him saying wit kant in the context of the game and trying to speak quickly with team mates.

And again, to be clear - if there has been insults related to race then Mbonambi should fully take the punishment for that, but I really think there is strong probability of lost in translation there. I've 100% heard Mbonambi speaking Afrikaans on the field. This should be investigated, but I'm not willing to throw Mbonambi under the bus based on this accusation. We also have our history and have a pretty mixed team. His own teammates would give him a proper ribbing if he made a comment like that.

 

[Wasps92]

What are peoples thoughts on the rebuild? All the pundits I've heard are keep the older lads and challenge for the 6N.

In doing so you're reducing the number of caps the new generation can get before the next rugby world cup.

I reckon a drip feed might be best. Eddie Jones used the RWC as an excuse for everything in between I'd really like to see England challenge for a 6N. France and Ireland aren't going to weaken post world cup so it won't be easy.

It should start against Argentina.

Players who we know are going to be there in 2027 or who have a good chance to be there need to play. That means Smith at 10, Dan at hooker, Chessum and Martin in the second row, Arundell on the wing etc…