SA to leave Super Rugby? SANZAR are considering changing the format of Super Rugby

[smartcooky]

Pardon my French-Canadian but B0ll0cks to that!


English Premier league winners in last 20 years:
Manchester Utd
Manchester City
Chelsea
Arsenal
Blackburn

20 years, 5 teams.

When money starts to centralise, then the competition becomes stunted.

If you want to run it like the NFL, then OK, thats different, but that is something akin to how the unions run it now. [NFL - 12 winners in 20 years if I have it right]

Not to mention that fact this is the English Premier League, and if you look at the players in those top four or five teams, its a game of "Spot the Englishman"

Full privatisation of domestic rugby competitions would be an utter disaster for the game. This is what Kerry Packer tried to do with his World Rugby Circus back in 1995. Thank God men like the late Jock Hobbs were able to put a stop to it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/sport/6569056/Jock-Hobbs-greatest-contribution-came-off-field

[TEXTAREA]A lawyer, he then devoted his energies to his family and career, but his links to rugby remained and he became a New Zealand Rugby Union (NZRU) councillor in 1995, emerging as a crucial figure in defusing the rift that had developed between players and the NZRU when rugby went professional.
The defection of New Zealand's top players to the Kerry Packer-backed World Rugby Corporation was considered a done deal until Hobbs, still a fledgling administrator, worked around the clock for six weeks to secure the key players' signatures for the NZRU.

He was lauded as "the man who saved rugby" after persuading All Blacks poised to join a breakaway professional circus to return to the NZRU fold[/TEXTAREA]

The NZRU, and Australia were able to get the signatures of their players and its the reason why, in this professional era, they have always been centrally contracted to their National Unions.

The RFU and FFR were too late, or didn't even try, and that is why their clubs ended up being privately owned. Nearly 20 years later, it is finally dawning on them what a big mistake that was.

 

[Draggs]

The WRC was also stopped by South Africa (and Dr. Luyt) not being wholly convinced by it. Australia were onboard as were many NZ players at the time.
There was a good Aussie documentary on it, not on youtube anymore. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

You guys are ridiculous, you just picked the worst example of any private professional league out there as an example of what not to do. The EPL is a terrible example of how to run a professional league and nowhere in my previous posts did I ever say you should seek to emulate the EPL, so way to put words in my mouth. I was actually thinking something more along the lines of the NFL which I think I was pretty clear with but don't compare rugby to the NFL, pro rugby is nowhere near as well administered and the NFL and has a long way to go before it can even be uttered in the same sentence.

 

[Amiga500]

I was actually thinking something more along the lines of the NFL which I think I was pretty clear with

But the NFL is the ultimate example of a business run with a communist mindset (which - given your earlier comment on communism - is why I picked you up wrong). Not that I am complaining - the NFL is a superb example of the way professional sport should be administered IMO.

i.e. draft picks? what on earth is capitalist about that? Or the funding mechanism?


[Just don't tell the yanks there are strong parallels with the NFL and communist philosophies; they'd totally freak out!]

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

But the NFL is the ultimate example of a business run with a communist mindset (which - given your earlier comment on communism - is why I picked you up wrong). Not that I am complaining - the NFL is a superb example of the way professional sport should be administered IMO.

i.e. draft picks? what on earth is capitalist about that? Or the funding mechanism?


[Just don't tell the yanks there are strong parallels with the NFL and communist philosophies; they'd totally freak out!]

My point on communism was in reference to quotas in professional rugby and the unions trying to control the administration of the club side of the sport, come to think of it, rugby is more of a benevolent dictatorship . What I am advocating is a separation of the club and international game, right now they are basically administered by the same people. I think the model in France is the best overall and should be applied world wide aka let the clubs have the right to self-determination, allow private investors to invest in the game, let the ERC in Europe be the overarching governing body of the leagues and not the individual unions, basically get rid of the nationalism that pervades professional rugby right now.

 

[Amiga500]

But the French game is building itself up to fall apart...?


In a few years time, it'll be held up as a prime example of what not to let happen.

 

[big ginger 8]

My point on communism was in reference to quotas in professional rugby and the unions trying to control the administration of the club side of the sport, come to think of it, rugby is more of a benevolent dictatorship . What I am advocating is a separation of the club and international game, right now they are basically administered by the same people. I think the model in France is the best overall and should be applied world wide aka let the clubs have the right to self-determination, allow private investors to invest in the game, let the ERC in Europe be the overarching governing body of the leagues and not the individual unions, basically get rid of the nationalism that pervades professional rugby right now.

But most rugby fans like having the nationalism...except a lot of the French who couldn't give a **** about the national team and only care about their club. I'd say this is a situation most fans don't want.

I'm an Ireland fan first and a Leinster fan second.

I've kind of skimmed some posts and had a passing following, but I'm just going to say some stuff with the example of the IRFU above. Now the IRFU are far from always right and have made some **** ups but rugby would not be as strong in Ireland if it wasn't for them and most of the big names would be playing rather than the case where just this coming season only one nailed on starter is playing abroad. You talk about the shorfall for the IRFU but very few business' are actually making money in Ireland at the moment and it's the money from the international rugby that is helping the provinces stay decent. You mentioned Connacht only being a development team, without the IRFU there would be no Connacht. In fact I'd say of the provinces only Munster with a small possibility of Ulster could operate at the current level without the IRFU. You could of course make the point of private investors if the provinces went private but why would anyone want ot buy an Irish team when they could have a team from England or France? I personally believe that with full privitisation for the provinces in Ireland would mean neither club nor country would be able to flourish.

 

[Big Ewis]

But the French game is building itself up to fall apart...?


In a few years time, it'll be held up as a prime example of what not to let happen.

hey !!!! heyy !!! EASY there !!! don't say sht like that man, you can think it but wow there !!

P.S.: aren't we getting the smileys back like........EVER ?

 

[nickdnz]

But the French game is building itself up to fall apart...?

In a few years time, it'll be held up as a prime example of what not to let happen.

But most rugby fans like having the nationalism...except a lot of the French who couldn't give a **** about the national team and only care about their club. I'd say this is a situation most fans don't want.

I'm an Ireland fan first and a Leinster fan second.

I've kind of skimmed some posts and had a passing following, but I'm just going to say some stuff with the example of the IRFU above. Now the IRFU are far from always right and have made some **** ups but rugby would not be as strong in Ireland if it wasn't for them and most of the big names would be playing rather than the case where just this coming season only one nailed on starter is playing abroad. You talk about the shorfall for the IRFU but very few business' are actually making money in Ireland at the moment and it's the money from the international rugby that is helping the provinces stay decent. You mentioned Connacht only being a development team, without the IRFU there would be no Connacht. In fact I'd say of the provinces only Munster with a small possibility of Ulster could operate at the current level without the IRFU. You could of course make the point of private investors if the provinces went private but why would anyone want ot buy an Irish team when they could have a team from England or France? I personally believe that with full privitisation for the provinces in Ireland would mean neither club nor country would be able to flourish.

Bingo. I thinks that's where Canadian-Rugger and many rugby fans differ. The French game has prileged clubs to the detriment of their national team, and many of us hold our national teams with equal or greater importance. For me I love the All Blacks much more than the Hurricanes. Looking at the NFL, NHL, NBL and NBA - they are the epitome of the games, where rugby we want the epitome to be the national teams.

 

[welshglory]

But should the national game really be propping up the club game and the salaries of the international players?

 

[TRF_heineken]

But should the national game really be propping up the club game and the salaries of the international players?

If it wasn't for the national game, some of these players wouldn't have even been known by some clubs.

Some players made their mark on the International scene, for instance, Bryan Habana made his debut vs England on the wing, he came on off the bench in the second half, and with his first touch of the ball, he ran around the England wing and scored a try.

If it wasn't for that selection of him on the wing, he would've still be playing scrumhalf for the Lions and not have become the world-class wing that he is today which resulted in him being offered tons of money to play in France.

 

[welshglory]

If it wasn't for the national game, some of these players wouldn't have even been known by some clubs.

Some players made their mark on the International scene, for instance, Bryan Habana made his debut vs England on the wing, he came on off the bench in the second half, and with his first touch of the ball, he ran around the England wing and scored a try.

If it wasn't for that selection of him on the wing, he would've still be playing scrumhalf for the Lions and not have become the world-class wing that he is today which resulted in him being offered tons of money to play in France.

That has nothing to do with my point, perhaps i didn't make myself clear.

I'm saying shouldn't club/super rugby aim to be to be financially independent instead of relying on handouts from their unions just to survive.

Wouldn't it be better if the National unions didn't have to top up international contracts and unions when that money could go to developing the game in their country.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That has nothing to do with my point, perhaps i didn't make myself clear.

I'm saying shouldn't club/super rugby aim to be to be financially independent instead of relying on handouts from their unions just to survive.

Wouldn't it be better if the National unions didn't have to top up international contracts and unions when that money could go to developing the game in their country.

I think there has to be a seperation between SA and NZ and AUS regarding your question then.

If we look at the South African model. The Super Rugby teams, are in essence the union. For instance, the Sharks, Bulls, Lions and Stormers are the same as the clubs, with the Stormers having a different name. The Cheetahs are the only SR team of SA that is a joint venture between 2 clubs with it consisting of the Cheetahs and Griquas and also sharing the 2 stadiums in Bloemfontein and Kimberley.

As for Development, I think because of the current political situation in SA, these unions gets a lot of financial development backing from the Government and that is used as a seperate project altogether. Luckily in SA, the community plays a major role, and festivals and the Craven Week gets their own sponsorship deals and even tv coverage.

Then we have Supersport, who is basically a monopoly all on its own for the African Continent, even owning their own soccer team. They pump so much money into the local teams in to ensure they get the best coverage, that the unions don't really need to worry about that.

With that said, SA's biggest problem is the exchange rate of the South African Rand towards basically every other currency they are in contention with.

 

[smartcooky]

But should the national game really be propping up the club game and the salaries of the international players?

That is the reality in this country.

The NZRU "props up" the ITM Cup here because it OWNS and operates that competition, and it sees this as vital to the future of the game.

The ITM Cup is effectively the showcase for the best of our club rugby* players looking to advance their careers to Super Rugby, and it pits them up against those Super Rugby players who haven't made it to the All Blacks yet.

* welshglory
Club rugby here means something different than it perhaps does in Wales. If our Super Rugby equates roughly to your Pro12, then the ITM Cup equates to your Welsh Premiership, and our Club Rugby to whatever level you have below that.

 

[welshglory]

That is the reality in this country.

The NZRU "props up" the ITM Cup here because it OWNS and operates that competition, and it sees this as vital to the future of the game.

The ITM Cup is effectively the showcase for the best of our club rugby* players looking to advance their careers to Super Rugby, and it pits them up against those Super Rugby players who haven't made it to the All Blacks yet.

* welshglory
Club rugby here means something different than it perhaps does in Wales. If our Super Rugby equates roughly to your Pro12, then the ITM Cup equates to your Welsh Premiership, and our Club Rugby to whatever level you have below that.

I mean the Super rugby level.
I think the ITM Cup should have funding from the union, but only as a development tool not as a pro comp.

How about if the Super rugby franchises were privatised, the NZRU could then fully invest in the ITM Cup and the levels below that even the international players.

What i'm trying to say is that i think that the international unions shouldn't have much do to with the tier below international rugby if anything to do with it. Maybe some money to support it, but not fully fund it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I mean the Super rugby level.
I think the ITM Cup should have funding from the union, but only as a development tool not as a pro comp.

How about if the Super rugby franchises were privatised, the NZRU could then fully invest in the ITM Cup and the levels below that even the international players.

What i'm trying to say is that i think that the international unions shouldn't have much do to with the tier below international rugby if anything to do with it. Maybe some money to support it, but not fully fund it.

In SA the Franchises are all privately owned. SARU doesn't have a hold on any player, that is why our players can go and play wherever they want to. SARU doesn't invest in the unions, and basically tells them to keep the ship afloat. SARU only gives out money to the unions at development level, and that is High School and University levels.

 

[nickdnz]

I mean the Super rugby level.
I think the ITM Cup should have funding from the union, but only as a development tool not as a pro comp.

How about if the Super rugby franchises were privatised, the NZRU could then fully invest in the ITM Cup and the levels below that even the international players.

What i'm trying to say is that i think that the international unions shouldn't have much do to with the tier below international rugby if anything to do with it. Maybe some money to support it, but not fully fund it.

But the reason the NZRU funds it is because they own it.

I know what you are saying but the reason that the NZRU owns these clubs is because they are able to be involved and control all of NZ rugby essentially. That may seem grim, but what it means is that the NZRU can have a real ability to select what players and when for their national team. Hypothetically if the NZRU didn't control our Super Rugby teams, you could have players who are wanted for the All Blacks miss out on contracts for club rugby and head overseas against the will of the NZRU - or the clubs could make demands to change the season schedual and increase it, like you have with the Top 14. Or the clubs could contract overseas players instead of New Zealand players and so the important second tier means those players don't develop. Or they could simply make it difficult for players to become avalible. All these things are very real issues which the NZRU nullifies by controlling all stages of rugby within New Zealand. From the NZRU stand point I don't know why they would change that.

Recently they have allowed other parties to partly own the teams I think though. Like the Canterbury Rugby Union partly owns the Crusaders.

 

[Peat]

My point on communism was in reference to quotas in professional rugby and the unions trying to control the administration of the club side of the sport, come to think of it, rugby is more of a benevolent dictatorship . What I am advocating is a separation of the club and international game, right now they are basically administered by the same people. I think the model in France is the best overall and should be applied world wide aka let the clubs have the right to self-determination, allow private investors to invest in the game, let the ERC in Europe be the overarching governing body of the leagues and not the individual unions, basically get rid of the nationalism that pervades professional rugby right now.

I wouldn't describe myself as particularly nationalist; I picked a club team that is not part of my nation in a rugby sense. But I am an England fan first, and an Ulster fan second, and the precedence of country is right and proper in my eyes and those of many other rugby fans.

I also think the model in France is an awful one for pro rugby. The number of French players seems to be falling, the wealth gap between the top and the bottom increases, player welfare is poor. You condemn the English Premier League, but the Top 14 is the EPL writ small. And in French. Obvs.

While I do not trust the unions totally, and see opportunities in a stronger club game, rugby as a whole is best served by the continuation of a model in which generally, the unions and clubs are very co-dependent.

 

[smartcooky]

I mean the Super rugby level.
I think the ITM Cup should have funding from the union, but only as a development tool not as a pro comp.

How about if the Super rugby franchises were privatised, the NZRU could then fully invest in the ITM Cup and the levels below that even the international players.

What i'm trying to say is that i think that the international unions shouldn't have much do to with the tier below international rugby if anything to do with it. Maybe some money to support it, but not fully fund it.

I guess what you are missing is that all NZ professional rugby players are contracted to the NZRU, be they All Blacks, Super Rugby Players or ITM Cup. That is how our system is organised.

Personally, I don't want to see the franchises fully privatised, for the same reason that I don't want players who are playing their rugby outside of New Zealand to be eligible to the All Blacks.

I want the NZRU to have unrestricted access to all our players. What I don't want is some arbitrary organistion like England's PRL pulling the strings of players and controlling access the way that it happens in England. If the All Blacks selectors say they want to hold a training camp, say on Tuesday and Wednesday of week 12 of Super Rugby, I don't want the owner of the Crusaders, for example, telling the NZRU that they can't have Dan Carter, Kieren Read and Sam Whitelock.

 

[Icemn]

happy days :lol: