Salary Cap Investigations

[General Melchett]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/sara...legation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/

Wow

Next week's headline:

"Saracens quit English rugby and join Pro14 in an attempt to test themselves against stiffer opposition"

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I suppose with the fear of relegation no longer applying to other clubs in the Premiership, they'll all start playing with reckless abandon.

Huge news about Sarries if true.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Now also on the BBC website

 

[Reiser99]

Seems like releasing players solves nothing. This is from the BBC article.

"The contract season has already run for seven months - since the start of July - with all the money paid to players who have featured for the club during that period counting towards the cap. Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill."

From the sounds of it they are completely screwed. I'm honestly in shock because they are such a huge brand and have been so successful despite cheating. While I fully support enforcing the cap, I also don't want to see English rugby suffer as a result and have fans turn away over this.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm split on this, on the one hand they should be punished for breaching the cap and I think being stripped of their ***les would have been a suitable addition. However if the club is very clearly attempting to bring the cap down and in the process it is breached (due to clauses in the contracts) then I don't think those should count towards the cap. I would have been inclined to say Saracens have had their punishment, they should be now allowed sufficient wiggle room to bring the salary cap down and if after an agreed reasonable amount of time to get their house in order they still haven't, then it should be automatic relegation.

Like or loath the cheating, there is no denying that Saracens have still been an incredible outfit with a lot of home grown talent and a larger contribution to England than any other club for many consecutive years. Their success has not simply been bought like a lot of French clubs, they have a great structure for creating talent. They have a very good chance of popping straight back up again if the exodus of players and staff isn't too great.

Also as a Bath fan it's squeaky bum time as I think we have been dancing near the cap too (although we more tend to just through lots of money at relatively mediocre players).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

They'll be nice and rested for Europe so! Bring it on.

I almost feel bad for them, until I remember Nigel Wray is top dog anyway. They're being made an example of for breaching a cap that I reckon is a bit too restrictive and ought to be expanded soon enough. (Although probably not to the extent Sarries broke it at a guess) There's a difference between everyone playing on the the same budget and a cap to ensure competitiveness and I think the prem leans towards the former, which doesn't make sense with a load of privately owned clubs.

 

[Reiser99]

Just had a thought. Hypothetically if Saracens win the Champions cup they'll qualify for it next season even if relegated. That would be interesting.

If they are confirmed as relegated soon then they'll have nothing to play for in the Premiership and so might as well target the Champions cup, assuming they qualify for the knockout stages this weekend.

 

[Reiser99]

They'll be nice and rested for Europe so! Bring it on.

I almost feel bad for them, until I remember Nigel Wray is top dog anyway. They're being made an example of for breaching a cap that I reckon is a bit too restrictive and ought to be expanded soon enough. (Although probably not to the extent Sarries broke it at a guess) There's a difference between everyone playing on the the same budget and a cap to ensure competitiveness and I think the prem leans towards the former, which doesn't make sense with a load of privately owned clubs.

Unless Wray is secretly running things for the side he's gone already. Premiership Rugby have launched a review of the cap, so it could change to be less restrictive. However from what I've read that's not the purpose of the review and if anything it is to tighten up the regulations.

From: https://www.premiershiprugby.com/ne...w-of-premiership-rugby-salary-cap-regulations

"The purpose of the independently-led Review is to strengthen further the Salary Cap Regulations to ensure that they provide a world-leading system with extensive investigatory powers and appropriately robust sanctions."

 

[Scotty]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/sara...legation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/

Wow

Wow


Having trouble making the cap....persumably means players wont take a pay cut and are still under contract. Sarries Firesale everone must go! Sure Chiefs still have some cap left

Can you imagine though if sarries actually got religated and won the champions cup in one season.

 

[die_mole]

what if they just keep winning europe forever and keep qualifying without playing in a league. Every knockout game could mean the actual death of them.

While I believe that salary caps are anti-competitive, anti-labor, ineffective in creating parity, and only a tool to prevent owners from looking stupid because well rich people have to be smart; Saracens should suffer whatever prescribed punishment is in the by-laws. I have no reason to believe that the salary cap would be an unenforceable provision of a contract (EU anti-competition laws maybe but Brexit means Brexit). Interested to see what the reaction from the players is. Do they stay and win promotion for the club; I could see Faz, George, Itoje, and other lifetime Saracens boys doing that. Or do they go on a year-long loan or just leave the club altogether?

 

[jcahill1]

what if they just keep winning europe forever and keep qualifying without playing in a league. Every knockout game could mean the actual death of them.

While I believe that salary caps are anti-competitive, anti-labor, ineffective in creating parity, and only a tool to prevent owners from looking stupid because well rich people have to be smart; Saracens should suffer whatever prescribed punishment is in the by-laws. I have no reason to believe that the salary cap would be an unenforceable provision of a contract (EU anti-competition laws maybe but Brexit means Brexit). Interested to see what the reaction from the players is. Do they stay and win promotion for the club; I could see Faz, George, Itoje, and other lifetime Saracens boys doing that. Or do they go on a year-long loan or just leave the club altogether?

Why do you believe salary caps are anti-competitive and ineffective? Seems like they would logically make it more competitive by allowing smaller teams to compete? I always felt they were a logical way of keeping teams on a relatively even playing field. Especially since prem teams can't afford to pay wages under the current cap while also making a profit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Soooooooo........
What's gonna happen with Farrell, Vunipolas, Daly, Itoje etc.etc.

Take the hit and play in the championship?
Relegation clause?
Loaned to a prem club to keep playing for England?
Loaned to a foreign club to keep their skills up but not be eligible for England?


That said I don't even know if the Championship makes players ineligible - Wilson came to us because Newcastle got relegated but maybe that's because there's plenty of competition in his position and Prem rugby keeps him in selectors eyes.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I don't think England selection would be a reason for them moving, you wouldn't not select Farrell or Itoje knowing they're world class players.
Obviously they have personal goals on winning things so I wouldn't begrudge them leaving.

 

[FLOBALOB]

Soooooooo........
What's gonna happen with Farrell, Vunipolas, Daly, Itoje etc.etc.

Take the hit and play in the championship?
Relegation clause?
Loaned to a prem club to keep playing for England?
Loaned to a foreign club to keep their skills up but not be eligible for England?


That said I don't even know if the Championship makes players ineligible - Wilson came to us because Newcastle got relegated but maybe that's because there's plenty of competition in his position and Prem rugby keeps him in selectors eyes.

Would be counter intuitive for any other club to take them just for a year and keep them up to speed, only for them to return the year after to play against them. Especially if they are going to lose them for a fair chunk of the season for internationals.
I imagine it wouldn't be good for team spirit either.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think England selection would be a reason for them moving, you wouldn't not select Farrell or Itoje knowing they're world class players.
Obviously they have personal goals on winning things so I wouldn't begrudge them leaving.

It's uncharted territory, though - we've only ever had Wilson as a relegated squad member and he jumped ship

That said it wouldn't surprise me if they class automatic delegation as one of the exceptional circumstances for selection (if the championship is off limits)

 

[Scotty]

Im sure they can pick from the championship for England as it is an English league it just doesnt happen due to being a step below in quality

 

[Amiga500]

Epic.

Hope they follow through and relegate them.

Down to London 3 East should do nicely.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

what if they just keep winning europe forever and keep qualifying without playing in a league. Every knockout game could mean the actual death of them.

I don't think they'd be allowed to play from the championship. The change back from the old format to the new has made it fairly clear that the tournament places are allocated to premiership, top14 and pro14 teams rather than English, French etc... Like it used to be.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Unless Wray is secretly running things for the side he's gone already.

Wray's now stood down from the board as well as chairman, but I think he's still going to fund them. At least that was the intention when he stood down as chair.

Also as a Bath fan it's squeaky bum time as I think we have been dancing near the cap too.

Hence Roberts move?

Soooooooo........
What's gonna happen with Farrell, Vunipolas, Daly, Itoje etc.etc.

Sarries do seem to be a pretty tight ship. Unless the club is totally destroyed, which is possible, they'll bounce straight back up and I think the big names with the established reputations and decent bank balances will totally want to be part of that. Tompkins will prob head to Ospreys or somewhere.

Wonder how Allianz are viewing all this. Big corporations don't like being associated with toxic brands.

 

[Which Tyler]

So it looks like they really didn't know the salary cap regulations if they didn't know that settlements for contract terminations count towards the cap - it's why everyone else looks to transfer players they no longer want so that there's no (or much reduced) settlement - or send them off on loan for a whole year (as they don't count if they don't play for you - see Liam Williams, or Dave Attwood last year). Retirement would work the same way; but the player would be looking for a payment from the insurance company, not the club (and we all know how much insurance companies are happy to pay up when they think it's someone else's job)

I would also wonder if it's actually automatic relegation, or if that's just the language being bandied about. I could see it being 35 points now, and 35 points suspended for 3 years, and applies the moment you step over - which could equate to 70 points this year. I could also see it that automatic relegation was held over as the suspended sentence.

I'm not worried at all about English Rugby per se - A] Sarries will drop down for a year, lose some top talent, and then bounce back, and we already know that Sarries without their top talent are still a force to be reckoned with - and largely home-grown, which you'd expect to make a difference in terms of loyalty. B] That top talent will still find homes, though if they leave it another couple of months, they may struggle to find homes towards the top of the table, but that's fine for English Rugby, Newcastle, London Irish, Worcester can take 2 each; and that'd be enough to get Sarries under the cap going forwards, and enough to keep their England contingent in the Prem, even if they head back after 1-2 years. Let's face it, part of the point of the cap is to spread the talent a bit more equally between all the clubs, and to stop any one club getting too strong.

Also as a Bath fan it's squeaky bum time as I think we have been dancing near the cap too (although we more tend to just through lots of money at relatively mediocre players).

Meh, along with 7 other clubs who dance right up to, and occassionally beyond the cap. I still don't think we've smashed it at any point (we now have evidence that we weren't under investigation that year when everyone came and said that it wasn't them, so everyone assumed we were - without actually looking at the quality of our squad) - though I fully expect that we've nudged above it at some points, along with most senior teams.