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Sam Burgess named on Bath bench Vs Harlequins tomorrow night

I can't pretend to understand the scrum in great detail so I guess maybe I'm being too simplistic, I get that sometimes team failings can make an individual look worse than he is. What is it then? Is it the locks, or is it the whole pack as a unit, or a mix of factors?

Burgess, yeah. Played his way into the World Cup squad last night.
 
Sinckler isn't a rubbish scrummager at all.

As Patchey says, he can get into trouble when he has to be aggressive, but if he locks out... good luck trying to move him legally.

He is one of the best TH prospects I have ever seen - I'd swap him for Thomas in a heartbeat.
He has good hands, pace, workrate/fitness, aggression, power, he has a little bit of learning to do at the coalface... but give him a year or so and I think he'll start to regularly cause other scrums problems. Particularly if Quins sign a good scrummaging lock.

He'll be a 50+ cap England player.
 
I can't pretend to understand the scrum in great detail so I guess maybe I'm being too simplistic, I get that sometimes team failings can make an individual look worse than he is. What is it then? Is it the locks, or is it the whole pack as a unit, or a mix of factors?

Burgess, yeah. Played his way into the World Cup squad last night.

I think Quin's lock combo is a bit off and there are some general issues across the pack in terms of how they're approaching the scrum. And like I said, Sinckler didn't have a great night in terms of his own performance.

Worth mentioning that over recent years there have been a disproportionate number of young props who've come through. I think we've been a little spoilt and forgotten that for a prop to be consistently excellent it usually takes a number of years of development. Sinkler is always going to be a little inconsistent.
 
I think a lesson learnt from Dan Cole's progression is that it doesn't harm a prop's potential to have them understudy someone for a few years until they are fully ready. Teams need two top tightheads anyway, so Quins ought to bring in a big name tighthead and have Sinckler fight his way in front.

Also, a better second-choice loosehead too.

And get rid of PDJ whilst they're at it.

Horwill is already coming in in the second-row. (Is he? Was this confirmed?) Combined with Matthews, that's pretty solved.
 
Not exactly the Olly Kohn replacement they've desperately needed for the past couple of seasons.
 
Yeah agree about Sinkler...looks a cracking prospect.

We need to remember that him and Scott Wilson (our young prop) are both 20/21. That's ridiculously young for a TH prop who really don't come into their own till late 20's...and through to the 30's.

The front row is also very much influenced by their locks. Poor locks and you'll not get the best out of the front row.

More physical than Robson though.

Rats, my granny is more physical than him...! :D
 
We need to remember that him and Scott Wilson (our young prop) are both 20/21. That's ridiculously young for a TH prop who really don't come into their own till late 20's...and through to the 30's.
I'm slightly concerned that we will crock them before they ever even reach their potential tbh.

When you go from scrummaging against U20 opponents, to starting against the best in the world in the space of a year or two, the adjustment period is so small it really worries me. It's not normal for props to be starting for their club so young in their career, and I'm worried that the strain of being first-choice from such a young age will shorten their careers, or cause injuries early in their career that will recur throughout. Front row players bodies take more stress, due to the scrum, than any other position, so this is of a much bigger concern for young front-row players than others.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...using-on-the-key-areas-to-really-prosper.html

Sam Burgess has all the skills to be a hit in rugby union, now it's about focusing on the key areas to really prosper

By Will Greenwood ~ 04 Dec 2014


Will Greenwood, one of England's greatest ever centres, writes an open letter to rugby league convert Sam Burgess on how he can succeed in the position and his new sport

Dear Sam,

You probably don't know who I am, but I used to play in the position you are trying to learn at Bath.

I once tried to play rugby league but I nearly ended up in a hospital after Dennis Betts bent my legs over backwards and tried to take my head home as a tea cosy.

It was not pretty, so I stuck with union, which is a funny old game at times. Even though a rugby league pitch is the same size, and the idea of the game is the same (get a ball down the other end of the pitch, and if the opposition have it, then smash them) union has a lot of extra finicky rules.

You have all the skills to be a hit, quite literally, in all senses. But there a few areas you could focus on if you really want to get our game quickly:

1. Gain line
Remember to use your physique, great leg drive, and pace off mark, and get over the gain line. That is your goal. Your main reason for being on the pitch. Watch Ben Morgan's first try for England last week. It was all about Brad Barritt's great angle off George Ford that put him in behind Matt Toomua. Then it was quick ball, forwards round the corner, and a try. Whether or not they know you are coming Sam, it does not matter. You are a proper unit and you need to revive the old Wigan call of "Give it to Kevin". This was the battle call to get Kevin Iro into the game because they knew that if he had the ball, he would make yards. That is you now in the Union game.

If I could also make some observations from your first game against Quins, where you were so keen you almost bowled over your own players. Be patient. Relax. Union scrums are different to League scrums. The ball is very easily disrupted and it may not just be served on a dish. Watch and time your move better.

Also, Union mauls are something you probably have not had to deal with. Again, they can take a very long time, wobbling about and moving even after they stop. Don't set off when you want to set off. Take your timing off the ball in the hands of the scrum-half, not because you can see it at the back of the maul.

From lineouts again, use second gear as you take your first couple of paces, once you see the flight of the ball then back yourself. But remember just how many variables there are once the ball leaves a hooker's hand to throw it in. On the hit-ups in the middle, with your size, you will never be late. Being early is what will cause errors.

One final thought; even if you are big, do not be too upright. Union boys know how to tie people up and the choke tackle is rife. Get on your charge, use a lower body angle. The first time someone gets you in a choke do not get wound up by the whooping and high fiving; you are a big scalp, just get lower next time.


2. Backs Moves
Keep It Simple. Your distribution is not in question. We know you can pass. But resist the temptation to try to create too much magic early on as this will make life tough. Be happy to play the decoy. Learn your role in the move and understand your gravitational pull on defenders. Be warned that blocks get pulled up much more in union than league. Refs will be watching and opponents will be happy to play the fall guy if they find themselves in your train tracks.

So as a decoy you are looking to attract and put a defender in doubt but not to make contact. For the moves that require quick distribution, I would look for League passes - the balls that rotate end over end. When, and if, they ask you to pull off a longer pass then get on a paddock with one of the best in the business, George Ford, and work on your spin pass. Do not be embarrassed to say early doors if you can't nail a 15-yard pass off your weaker hand. Even the greatest have a weaker hand. Forcing plays is the last thing you want to be doing while learning the game.

3. Offloads
This is where self-control is going to be key. We were all watching last week, a midfield hit up, arms beyond the tackle, the offload. But it went to no one. The ball was turned over. There will be a theme developing over the next few weeks – error count. Keep it low while you adapt. Just like league teams want to complete a set of six, Union players must cherish the ball. Offloading has been taken to a new level in union by some of your cross-code predecessors.

But there are times when going to floor and recycling is just as effective. England have conceded numerous tries from turnovers in the last 12 months. A poor Billy Twelvetrees offload in Dunedin cost us the second Test in New Zealand.

Everyone wants tempo, everyone wants ball in and out of contact. But it is not possible to achieve that every single time you touch the ball. Look for it, have the ball available if you can, but learn the power of self-control. You are bright enough already, without ever playing a full game of union to know the risky pass from the percentage pass.

4. Spend time in every position in the backs
This is not about having a jolly time. This is about learning the pressures and strains put on players in every position in the back division. They will all have different requirements and if you are to meet them, you will need to know what they are looking to achieve. Just because you want a winger to be in one position, does not necessarily mean they can either get there, or want to get there.

You will need to play their realistic strengths. Awareness of the capabilities, not just of the actual players you are with, but more importantly the positions they represent is huge. Martin Johnson used to come and learn the backs moves and play in the centre. Why? So he knew what a helpful line of run would be as a forward if he found himself out there against New Zealand.

I feel this is something the whole English backline could do. Moves and plays break down because of the way we expect perfect textbook positions from players who are being smashed and pulled and pushed. Rugby is a constantly moving platform and unless you understand how the players around you have to flow, you will not be able to adjust to them limiting your impact.

5. Back row
They are your enemy. From the back of scrums, from the tail of lineouts, they have their crosshairs pinned on you. You are public enemy number one to any team you play against. You can learn from three of the best at your own club - hard-nosed hitmen such as Francois Louw, Carl Fearns, and Matt Garvey.

They will be looking to shut you down. You will need to tell your fly-half where the gaps are and how you want the ball delivered. Do not be shy. If you are, they will eat you for breakfast.

Get your communication right with your fly-half and you can adjust and tweak, and more importantly begin to advise your fly half where you want him. The 10 isn't the fella charging into the traffic. If he wants to swap, tell him to be your guest. But when it is your turn to be the hit man, you are in charge, not him.

6. The communicator
If, as I hope, you begin to play at 12 then your eyes and your tongue are as important as your quads and biceps. Being the extra set of eyes for a fly-half is crucial for a 12. The day he tells you to shut up is the day you know you are learning. Commentate on the game as it is happening. Who cares if the opposition can hear you? The constant flow of knowledge is a good thing.

You will soon learn your own filter, what are non-negotiables, what are added extras. But keep talking. Where is the space? What are the defence doing? Learn who the visionaries are in your back three. Some are pure athletes; others fly-halves trapped in a wing's body.

I knew if Austin Healey said we could attack from our own line, then we could go. I also knew Iain Balshaw wanted to run it from our own line all the time, no matter what. Communicator, filter, decision maker. Tough to learn quickly but that is where a centre can add value.

7. Kicking
Don't worry about it. I'm genuinely not overly concerned here. Jean de Villiers, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams, Jamie Roberts, for a long time Brian O'Driscoll, they didn't kick. They did OK. Practice – sure. Bring your short kicking game from rugby league into the training and see where you can use it.

But do not worry about being part of the exit strategy. Leave that to Nos 9, 10, and 15. Jason Robinson turned himself into one of the best kickers of the ball out of hand in the world. That can be your target. But it was more important for Jason back there to have the option. Where you are playing – it is not really in your pay grade.

8. Defence
Different teams drift or blitz. You have done both at times in League. Loads of numbers in the defence line, then go close the attackers down. If you are short of numbers, then use a touchline as friend or play the big gamble, the Paul Sackey tackle from the World Cup quarter-final in Marseille in 2007 or the Tommy Bowe read against Australia a couple of weeks ago. There is no absolutely perfect system. You already know that. No one is trying to teach you to suck eggs. But there are some pretty good players out there right now.

We know you want the big hit, the big bone rattler. It is how you can make the big impression. But do not chase it, the time will come. The good players might lure you in. Keep coming, keep coming, and then the ball is gone. Union lads aren't what they used to be. They can look after themselves. And they know you are coming. Be patient. And when you make the shot, the arms have to be involved and the hits have to be low. The Johnny Leota tackle on George Ford is no problem at all in rugby league - George Ford's reaction told you he thought it was ok, but refs are on full safety mode now.

Again in league some of your shots are epic, some would be looked at very closely by the TMO in Union. The last thing you want to be doing early on is the long walk for a 10 minute cool off in the sin bin. You have not got long to learn, stay on the field to do it.

Anyway Sam, that is enough to be getting on with for now. We have not even got to the breakdown yet, to the contact area, to the carnage in there. That can come later. But you will not be daunted, you won't be intimidated. You have good people at Bath.

As an old fella who loves this game, let me say welcome to rugby union young man – I know you will love it and can't wait to share your journey from a touchline.

Greens.





das
 
I can't pretend to understand the scrum in great detail so I guess maybe I'm being too simplistic, I get that sometimes team failings can make an individual look worse than he is. What is it then? Is it the locks, or is it the whole pack as a unit, or a mix of factors?

Burgess, yeah. Played his way into the World Cup squad last night.
The locks bring the pushing power. Attwood is one of the best TH locks you can find in the scrum. England with him in the scrum can move your set piece backwards, Bury and Lawes don't offer this. It is a whole unit thing though, some hookers (Du Plessis) are very powerful scrummagers that make a big difference and some backrowers are pretty hefty and add go forward. Bath with Garvey, Attwood, Fearns, Burgess, Houston in the back 5 would be formidable.
 
I'd just like to add to what Saffy says that it's not all about the raw power available to a player, there's also a large dollop of technique - and how much wallop you're able to put in. Watching guys like Launchbury and Lawes run about like blindside flankers, that's going to affect how much power they can put into each scrum. Attwood's not lazy, but it's rare to see him making cover tackles out wide like Lawesbury. And it goes the other way - a guy putting in everything to survive in the scrum has less puff for making his way around the tight.

Anyway, technique - give me a small flanker who will stay bound and squeeze their prop in over a big dope who's not angled in and starts looking around early.

I'm slightly concerned that we will crock them before they ever even reach their potential tbh.

When you go from scrummaging against U20 opponents, to starting against the best in the world in the space of a year or two, the adjustment period is so small it really worries me. It's not normal for props to be starting for their club so young in their career, and I'm worried that the strain of being first-choice from such a young age will shorten their careers, or cause injuries early in their career that will recur throughout. Front row players bodies take more stress, due to the scrum, than any other position, so this is of a much bigger concern for young front-row players than others.

On one of the other rugby forums, there's a guy who is (I think) a knee surgeon. He would ban front row players from playing top level rugby before they're about 22 if he could. You look at the troubles Corbs has had with his knee, Mullan with his shoulder, the long injuries that Thomas has had, and, yeah, it's great to see young props picking up experience, but it's also pretty worrying...
 
So do you think Joe Launchbury would actually ease off a bit in the scrum, because conserving energy in order to get around the field more is more useful to his game, or is it just that his build makes him more mobile and less powerful?

I'm trying to remember the thing about the two triangles I remember from a one morning "scrum factory" coaching course I did, which obviously made me an instant expert - I think the tighthead lock pushes through both tighthead prop and hooker to make a triangle with the power spread through two players, while the other lock and one flanker push together through the loosehead to make a triangle the other way round so the power all goes through one player? I'm not explaining it very well but does that make sense?
 
So do you think Joe Launchbury would actually ease off a bit in the scrum, because conserving energy in order to get around the field more is more useful to his game, or is it just that his build makes him more mobile and less powerful?

Or he blows the energy before he even gets there. Could be any one of these, could be a combination - I don't know - but there's a lot of possible reasons for lock output.

I'm trying to remember the thing about the two triangles I remember from a one morning "scrum factory" coaching course I did, which obviously made me an instant expert - I think the tighthead lock pushes through both tighthead prop and hooker to make a triangle with the power spread through two players, while the other lock and one flanker push together through the loosehead to make a triangle the other way round so the power all goes through one player? I'm not explaining it very well but does that make sense?

The one I know is that both locks push primarily through their props, which of course will push them out slightly, so you need the flankers to squeeze them back in, thus giving each prop the power of both guys and keeping them nice and stable, but I'm sure there's other ways of doing it too.

Leg position matters too. If a lock keeps his feet close to his core, he has more explosive power to give to the push as the legs uncoil. But, conversely, if his feet are far back, he is better balanced and able to lock it out. Depends on what you want from your scrum.
 
Maybe it's a question of whether you don't want your openside pushing to get him to the tackle / next breakdown quicker? So maybe on the blindside you have your flanker and lock together and on the openside you might have hooker-prop-lock as the inverted triangle? I'm sure like anything there are a million different approaches to scrummaging
 
I guess it is also what you want from your scrum.

I have a suspicion that Lancaster isn't concerned about having a destructive scrum (im sure in an ideal world he would) and is more concerned with the workate everywhere else of his pack.

He wants his locks like Lawes making crazy tackles out wide against Australia this Ai, and being all over the place.

As long as they win the ball on our own put in he's not concerned.

I do think having Attwood in there showed what a real powerhouse of a Lock can offer though.

I also think Ed Slater offers the same but possibly a better carrying game as well. Shame he got injured as he could well have made a lock spot his own. And he would be another leader out there on the pitch.
 

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