Second Best First Five?

[goodNumber10]

While those opening two sentences are completely right, we can ignore them, as Farrell was the only 10 near his standards and he was also a main goalkicker who had a chance to inflate his stats against Italy - 13 more minutes to be pedantic. One way of looking at Sexton's points haul vs Italy is that without his two tries and the conversion he added for one of them, Ireland would have lost the Six Nations. Or if Farrell had managed to get two tries against Italy and if we'd avoided the interception given while chasing the total, we'd have won.

I'd agree that Farrell had an improved tournament and I'd agree that Sexton wasn't consistently at his best. But I don't feel that Farrell was sufficiently good to be rated above a man with four critical tries. That contribution, for me, is very difficult to beat. It's not like the rest of his game was particularly shabby either really.

don't want to descend this into an argument, but…..

You made your goal kicking point before I'd even named Farrell, there were only three goalkicking 10s out of 6 teams – so I do think it's a point that should be excluded. Fair enough, you don't but the permutations as to what makes a kick difficult are endless, conditions, location of goal kick and so on – surely the best comparison is then their head to head on the day? Same conditions and same match?

Regardless Ireland and England play quiet different attack systems, where Sexton is expected to be in a position for one two touches – more loops and support running. England are a lot more direct in their running lines so the scope for the 10 to be involved multiple times in the same move are reduced greatly.

My point is it's just the patterns that Ireland use get Sexton into more scoring chances.

All in all I think Sexton is the better 10, if I was picking my Lions side he'd be first down on the sheet. But I thought Farrell had a better Six Nations than him.

 

[goodNumber10]

Didn't England also score a rake load of points against Italy? As to the impact argument, Sexton was stellar against the Welsh and score two tries in Paris. I'd say he was out best back of the tournament.

Farrell did have a very good tournament too though, make no mistake. He looked an improved player, but you do wonder how much of it is down to the improved form of Danny Care and having a kicking/distributing 12 outside of him.

How much of Sextons play si down to having the quality of Darcy and BOD outside him? players who can step and offload better than any other midfield int eh tournament bar possibly France?

Farrell player better and it absolutely was down to having Care playign well inside him and Twelvetrees/Burrell outside him, that doesn't mean his contribution is any less diminished because he's suddenly in a better team.

 

[TheSaffycen]

In the whole Sexton/Farrell discussion we can agree on a few things
-Sexton is the better player, he has everything
-Farrell is a better kicker, If you had to bet money on one of them making a kick it would be Farrell
-In a few years Farrell could be at the level Sexton is now
-The Backlines are so different to each other. I think that Sexton has a harder job than Farrell, the Ireland backline has no pace or power and sexton manages to add speed of passing and clever loops to the game that Farrell would struggle to do. Look at it this way if Farrell was playing for Ireland they would not have scored the points and tries they did. If Sexton played for England we may well have won the tournament
-When they went head-to-head the 22 year old Farrell kept his composure ahead of the 28 year old Sexton and won their duel.
-Both played very well behind a dominant pack, but when we played Ireland who's pack was better Farrell out played his counter-part

 

[Peat]

In the whole Sexton/Farrell discussion we can agree on a few things

Oh no we can't...

-Farrell is a better kicker, If you had to bet money on one of them making a kick it would be Farrell

Farrell's kicking percentage from the last 3 6N is 80.67pc, Sexton's is 83.63. Can't be bothered doing a fuller comparison, Statbunker has become crap and its too difficult to find all the stats, but Sexton is statistically the better kicker. Last time I was aware of a full count of his international career was probably end of 6N 2013, he was on about 88pc overall, Farrell was on about 80pc, doubt its changed much since then.

-When they went head-to-head the 22 year old Farrell kept his composure ahead of the 28 year old Sexton and won their duel.
-Both played very well behind a dominant pack, but when we played Ireland who's pack was better Farrell out played his counter-part

If by keeping his composure you mean making a late charge on Conor Murray that gave an unnecessary penalty, sure. I also don't recall Sexton butchering a gilt edged try chance in that match. Don't think their pack was better either, was very even with our pack definitely having an edge in the loose. Their pack barely made any ground and missed a whole ton of tackles.

goodNumber10 - Sure, what's the point of this place if not for friendly arguments?

Wind conditions can make a head to head not the same either, its why I prefer data from a wide range of matches, I'd like positional data and the like but can't have it all.

We can exclude kicking tbh, it makes no difference, if anything it improves the argument for Sexton having had the better tournament, as that was an area where Farrell was definitely better.

You make a valid point that Ireland's patterns involve him more - but surely Sexton deserves more credit for undertaking a more difficult task? He's not just a creator, he's also a support runner, and that increases the value of his performance. I also don't think D'Arcy and BOD helped him too much tbh, sure that no look pass was gorgeous, but Father Time has diminished them for my money. As Saffycen points out, the pace and power has gone, which makes things difficult.

Farrell's in with a shout though, can't dismiss him out of hand.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Farrell's kicking percentage from the last 3 6N is 80.67pc, Sexton's is 83.63. Can't be bothered doing a fuller comparison, Statbunker has become crap and its too difficult to find all the stats, but Sexton is statistically the better kicker. Last time I was aware of a full count of his international career was probably end of 6N 2013, he was on about 88pc overall, Farrell was on about 80pc, doubt its changed much since then.

This years 6 nations stats, which is what I am talking about
Farrell 24/29 is 82% and he was 100% in the last 2 games !!!!
Sexton 18/24 is 75%
They're both good players but I know if a kick had to be made for the RWC final I would pick Farrell

 

[kenny_bee180]

I think comparing Farrell and sexton is a little unfair. One is 22 and still learning and developing his game. The other is 28 and in the prime of his career.
They are both undoubtedly the best the NH has to offer however.
Sexton has played number 10 of the successful Leinster side. A victorious lions tour. And the current 6N champs.
Farrell plays 10 for, arguably the best team in England and for a emerging England team. You also have to take into consideration that he never played union until his mid teens.

 

[Big Ewis]

well the 'Sexton under pressure can't kick' thing is very founded and can't be called a cheap shot. It's definitely a reality. I don't know about all those other moments where maybe he kicked perfectly when under pressure, but from what I've seen in the space of the last few months it's clearly a pattern.
I'd rather have Farrell kick if it meant my life, yeah.

 

[Peat]

This years 6 nations stats, which is what I am talking about
Farrell 24/29 is 82% and he was 100% in the last 2 games !!!!
Sexton 18/24 is 75%
They're both good players but I know if a kick had to be made for the RWC final I would pick Farrell

Should have said on form them Me, I'd rather talk about full records than form.

well the 'Sexton under pressure can't kick' thing is very founded and can't be called a cheap shot. It's definitely a reality. I don't know about all those other moments where maybe he kicked perfectly when under pressure, but from what I've seen in the space of the last few months it's clearly a pattern.
I'd rather have Farrell kick if it meant my life, yeah.

What clutch kicks has Sexton missed recently? One against NZ, yup... missed a few against France, but if they count as clutch, so does Farrell's against Australia in the Autumn. Anymore than I'm forgetting?

 

[goodNumber10]

Should have said on form them Me, I'd rather talk about full records than form.

To be fair, my opening gambit was this years 6 nations

 

[Feicarsinn]

To be fair, my opening gambit was this years 6 nations

Which, this one?

 

[SimonG]

Chris Paterson was a winger...

His position was full back (mostly). I mentioned him as he was the primary goal kicker. Matt Burke falls into a similar cat. Australia had the perfect balance with Larkham at 10 and Burke 15 (bit similar to the Lions last yr).

Dan Carter was probably the best all rounder (modern era). As a goal kicker I'd have Wilkinson (early 2000s-03) over any player ever to put on a pair of boots. Routinely slotted the ball through the clowns mouth from practically anywhere in the opposing half, and he delivered every time when it mattered.

Folk mentioning Farrell need to get real. A more one dimensional 10 at international level you are never likely to see. He's put in a lot of practice to become a decent goal kicker, that's it. He doesn't have the natural ability to be expansive.

 

[Big Ewis]

wow, Feic rubbing it in harrrrrd. Wheewww...

 

[first5eight]

Noooooo

Fly-Half = First Five Eight
Inside Centre = Second Five Eight
Outside Centre = Centre

Then "second best first five" means nothing, is just a question like: "Who is the best Fly-Half?"

Look, mate. We're the best the world. Always have been, always will be. We get to call things what we want, o.k?