Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[Rich Taff]

Whenever I see him now, with his 'mane' it's like 'Reginald Perrin and the hippo', I just see a big dumb labrador with it's tongue out, happily running after a ball, and not quite knowing what's going on.

 

[psychic duck]

Point I think Duck is making is when Howley was appointed this was basically saying "we're doing it the Welsh way" and Schmidt was overlooked because his way is different.
It's irrelevant of what backs you have if the gameplan isn't sound then the rest won't click and well as Duck pointed out Gatlands record against Aus is awful and well his refusal to alter his game plan may be the downfall of this episode. And well the record shows Aus have him worked out and can handle it. As in if we are honest Aus should have this series put to bed and well if the Aus 12 was on field for more than a min in test 1 it could've been different story and something similar to 2009

Gatland's record against the top 3 sides with Wales is 1 win from 21 matches.

Which considering that this Wales side is the best, especially in the forwards, that Wales has had since the 1970's, is frankly not acceptable.

If you include his record with Ireland (who didn't have their finest generation under him especially at the beginning), then his record is 1 win from 29 matches. Including the Lions it is 2 from 31, and very lucky not to be 1 from 31, and he is a team on paper better than Australia at his disposal yet still struggles.

His peers of 6N coaches such as Martin Johnson, Eddie O'Sullivan, Andy Robinson, Declan Kidney and Marc Lievremont all have had more success than winning 1 match, from less attempts as well. Wales are statistically the best 6N side since 2008, but the 5th best side against the top 3.

Add to that Wales have lost to Samoa and Argentina coming off a Grand Slam and drawn to Fiji, whilst the coaches of the other big 4 nations in the 6N listed above have not lost to them (apart from a random match on France's 2010 tour).

It's clear that what works in Europe doesn't work vs the SH. Especially attacking wise. This series with the best of 4 was a good opportunity to win convincingly and get rid of the monkey of his back of poor form vs Australia, but the matches are just like Wales' ones (apart from Wales have never got lucky with missed kicks).

The statment was the scrum is more stable with Hibbard which isnt true. The scrum is a bit of a lottery to be honest and its doesnt really matter who is currently playing in the front row

Yes, your right, let's forget the scrum and fly in Ryan Bevington and Tony Buckley for this match as they will have excellent tackle/metre stats.

Basically, I want to see more of this:

This moment running over McFadden brought a downfall in Norh's form. He suddenly stopped using that great sidestep we saw in the 1st Test and been used as an attempted crash ball player in midfield trying to run over players for most of this past year. That tactic vs Ireland soon got found out by teams that defend well.

 

[Peat]

Didn't look very hard then. Your very own Afoa is the same height and only 1kg lighter (and also immense in the loose).

Right, I can't think how on earth I didn't mention a guy who's lighter when I was looking for guys who were heavier.

But lets reframe the argument then.

Adam Jones is currently not doing the work in the loose expected from an international prop.

The normal reason for players not to do enough work is either insufficient fitness or insufficient athleticism. Both are often caused by carrying more weight than other players.

Adam Jones' weight-height is uncommon, although not unknown. Most of the players approaching it or over it are of Pacific Island heritage, where it is common for players to be more bulky than players of other ethnic origins while maintaining similar levels of athleticism. There are a few players of the same general genetic heritage as Jones around that weight - Ducalon, Woodcock - but it is rare. So, either Jones is one of those rare people with a very high ideal weight for their height in terms of athleticism, and is not doing enough work for other reasons, or he's overweight. You lot can decide for yourselves.

As for scrummaging vs loose work - a prop who wins penalties is an asset, a prop who gives them away is a liability. A prop who does lots of work is an asset, a prop who does very little is a liability. Jones is an asset in the scrum and a liability around the park. His job is to make sure the team wins by adding the skills needed, not to perform one skill above all others. We've just lost a game in which his area of weakness was a weakness for the team in general. To me, that suggests he's not doing his job properly, along with a lot of other people when it comes down to it.

 

[Ospreylian]

This moment running over McFadden brought a downfall in Norh's form. He suddenly stopped using that great sidestep we saw in the 1st Test and been used as an attempted crash ball player in midfield trying to run over players for most of this past year. That tactic vs Ireland soon got found out by teams that defend well.

My point is that he needs to start combining all styles of his game. 1st test he showed off his sidestepping, 2nd test his strength (with the Folau lift and carry, which almost cost him his place on the tour with the awkward way he landed on his neck). There was a time with the Scarlets, during his first full season there, that he had a fantastic all-round game - one involving physical line-breaks which he combined with subtler and more pleasing-to-watch skills. I'm sure he can return to that style on a more consistent basis. I think people give him a hard time sometimes while forgetting he is still only 21 years of age.

 

[j'nuh]

As for scrummaging vs loose work - a prop who wins penalties is an asset, a prop who gives them away is a liability. A prop who does lots of work is an asset, a prop who does very little is a liability. Jones is an asset in the scrum and a liability around the park. His job is to make sure the team wins by adding the skills needed, not to perform one skill above all others. We've just lost a game in which his area of weakness was a weakness for the team in general. To me, that suggests he's not doing his job properly, along with a lot of other people when it comes down to it.

The trick should be to make sure specialists are protected in their areas of weakness. Jones is great in the set piece, can be good in the tight (fringe of ruck protection, tight carrying etc), but may struggle a little otherwise. So keep him near to the ruck, and push the team out to accommodate this! If he mirrors the contact zone in the tight, then he can be very useful outside of the set piece, whilst also freeing up other forwards to play a little looser.

 

[dullonien]

The trick should be to make sure specialists are protected in their areas of weakness. Jones is great in the set piece, can be good in the tight (fringe of ruck protection, tight carrying etc), but may struggle a little otherwise. So keep him near to the ruck, and push the team out to accommodate this! If he mirrors the contact zone in the tight, then he can be very useful outside of the set piece, whilst also freeing up other forwards to play a little looser.

Yeah that's how I see it. Whilst players across the field are becoming more multi-purpose (if that makes sense), there is still room for out-and-out specialists in rugby, for the time being at least. Jones is possibly the best in the world at his core role as a tighthead scrummager. Would you criticise a small winger for not being able to also crash it up the middle? There are plenty of wingers who can (North, Cuthbert and Bowe being examples), but this doesn't mean that someone like Shane Williams or Jason Robinson in their primes weren't among the best in the world at what they did, which was to score try's. Adam Jones' main role is to dominate the scrum, and more often than not he does that, helping secure vital penalties, which can accumulate to being of more worth than a try or two. 9 points on the weekend came from scrums, and I'd argue Jones was mainly responsible for all of them (I'll avoid bringing the ref into this one for the sake of ease).

Now if a team can get away with a lesser scrummager, then it can make sense to select the better open field player, but this is usually done on the looshead where a weaker scrummager isn't as exposed (Jenkins ahead of Paul James for example).

I would always pick the strongest scrummaging tighthead. It's just one of those positions that is so important to modern rugby. Getting dominance in the scrums can have a huge, huge influence on the game if the ref allows.

At the same time, I would like to see Adam Jones make a little more impact in other areas of the game, but that's certainly not from a lack of effort, it's simply that his athletic ability doesn't allow for it. For those stating he's overweight, I'm not too sure. His weight may be imperative to his scrummaging prowess, so take that away and you could be left with nothing of use. This is just speculation though, he could be even better if he lost the podge!

 

[Veal]

The scrum as described in the IRB laws is "a quick way to restart the game" look at some of the old school scrummaging just as competitve but quicker and with a lot less fuss.

Hallo ! Hallo everyone up in he northern hemisphere !! Remember the ELVs ??

The scrum problems had been fixed with the short arm penalty rule used in the experimental law variations.

The SH played a full year of these rules at club, province and international levels in 2008. The best year of Rugby I ever remember ( and I'm over 50). From memory it was not fully trialed in the NH (correct me if i'm wrong) but the IRB, using its home nations clout, vetoed the ELVs to the dustbin.

The endless resetting of scrums, dodgy penalties and whako - a game changing 3 points for a slipped bind !! or was that boring in ?? or pulling back etc etc. Every scrum is a lottery..... - so no one wants to play in their own half at all costs, therefore more territory kicking than running...... It is just ruining the spectacle of the game.....

 

[Haysie]

Justice4Horwill! The man is free to play.

What a shambles by the IRB.

 

[smartcooky]

I have been following this "#JusticeforHorwill" twitter campaign quite closely today. There have been some seriously angry remarks and some seriously funny ones, but this one is the best IMO by a country mile

"I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of soap dodgers suddenly cried out in pain and then were silenced"
Dean Corkery

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Hallo ! Hallo everyone up in he northern hemisphere !! Remember the ELVs ??

The scrum problems had been fixed with the short arm penalty rule used in the experimental law variations.

The SH played a full year of these rules at club, province and international levels in 2008. The best year of Rugby I ever remember ( and I'm over 50). From memory it was not fully trialed in the NH (correct me if i'm wrong) but the IRB, using its home nations clout, vetoed the ELVs to the dustbin.

The endless resetting of scrums, dodgy penalties and whako - a game changing 3 points for a slipped bind !! or was that boring in ?? or pulling back etc etc. Every scrum is a lottery..... - so no one wants to play in their own half at all costs, therefore more territory kicking than running...... It is just ruining the spectacle of the game.....

Never a truer word spoken, even the one and only season of ARC applied these rules, and it was fast paced, exciting and games were decided based on tries scored not penalties kicked. That year in super rugby was even better.

 

[SuperEagle]

No it isn't! Maybe you need to watch more Welsh and Ospreys games. Hibbard is one of the strongest scrummaging hookers in world rugby.Youngs' strengths are his carrying game in wider channels. He's not a weak scrummager, but I wouldn't call him a strong scrummager by any means.

Bloody hell you have a short memory!

I seem to remember Ospreys getting absolutely schooled by Leicester all over the park this season. Their scrum which included A Jones, Hibbard, Evans, AWJ, R Jones and Tipuric was taken apart by the Tigers pack which had Cole and Youngs in the front row, but were without our 1st choice loosehead - Marcos Ayerza.

Watch more Ospreys games! - here, let me refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR1qMXTpE4

For the scrums, go to 14:30, 31:30, 33:30, 37:30, 42:20, 49:30 etc... I can't be bothered to find anymore, but you get the idea.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

I have been following this "#JusticeforHorwill" twitter campaign quite closely today. There have been some seriously angry remarks and some seriously funny ones, but this one is the best IMO by a country mile

"I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of soap dodgers suddenly cried out in pain and then were silenced"
Dean Corkery

Some of the comments about Australia were disgraceful, someone said they hate Australia and hoped the country burned down. If you said the same about an African or middle eastern country it would be deemed racist.

 

[Haysie]

Some of the comments about Australia were disgraceful, someone said they hate Australia and hoped the country burned down. If you said the same about an African or middle eastern country it would be deemed racist.

Haha they can talk as much smack as they want, because OUR captain is playing this weekend.

 

[Peat]

Dull makes a very valid point that Jones' scrummaging prowess + Jones' weight may well be linked - seems very likely.

I also accept the argument that tighthead scrummagers are really important. I might be venting considerable about Jones' flaws, but I am still not sure I'd play Cole ahead of him, such is the importance of the role. That said - I would be very happy to accept "You won't leak penalties, you'll get good ball, you may win some penalties, and the guy will contribute" if our backline was showing anything.

But the scenario of protecting a specialist from doing things he is poor at is flawed, because what Adam Jones is poor at is keeping up with play so he can do useful things, and I don't see how you protect someone from that bar slowing the game down, which is far more difficult than choosing to give crash ball to a big guy than a small guy. I'd say the game is playing at faster than Six Nations speed and as a result, a lot of it is passing Jones by. This isn't about a prop who has to stick to the tight and will look foolish if isolated or out wide (which is still most of them), which I am fine with, this is about a prop who isn't getting into the positions we need him in consistently enough and a team that is failing in the loose.

 

[irelandfan123]

Haha they can talk as much smack as they want, because OUR captain is playing this weekend.

Mate Brian O'Driscoll was the real captain anyway we all know that

 

[William18]

One change I would like to see would be Stuart Hogg coming on to the bench. That at least gives you a chance to change your game plan if you fall behind.

 

[Haysie]

mate brian o'driscoll was the real captain anyway we all know that

poc?

 

[McTallshort]

Mate Brian O'Driscoll was the real captain anyway we all know that

shame he didnt play like one on saturday

 

[psychic duck]

Right, I can't think how on earth I didn't mention a guy who's lighter when I was looking for guys who were heavier.

He's all but the same weight. And 120kg props are certainly not uncommon. And to be honest, I don't care at all what Adam does in the loose with how good he is in the scrums, that he has improved his game in the loose to a passable level is just a bonus. If Ireland and France want to drop Mike Ross and Nicolas Mas as they don't offer much in the loose, or Italy want to swap Lorenzo Cittadini for Scott Andrews who can be quite handy in the loose, then I would be more than happy. I would also be happy if England selected Marler or Vunipola ahead of Corbisiero.

And I really don't know why people are still discussing the front row as if it's the biggest issue. The scrum won most of the Lions points in the 2nd Test, whilst the backs are getting away with little criticism for what was an awfully blunt attacking display which hardly looked like scoring a try.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

that he has improved his game in the loose to a passable level is just a bonus.

Has he, though?
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive fan of Adam, think he's the best scrummager in the world hands down.
However I've really been paying attention to his non-scrummaging play, and it really isn't up to much. I don't know whether he's just knackered after a long season, but his rucking is poor (G&G rugby pointed it out in one of their videos - he doesn't clear players out just turns up at completed rucks and lies on them) is rarely offering himself as a carrier and when he does doesn't make ground, and just is generally completely anonymous when there isn't a scrum going on.
I'll have to pay attention to him for Ospreys next season to see how he is fresh after some time off.

I'm presuming the scrum is being discussed because it leaked >1pt, which is what we lost by.