Some teams receiving far greater rest between games

[Siva Tau]

I just heard Ireland will get 10 days rest after Wallabies game, whilst Namibia, Samoa and some others get 4 days. Was it not possible to organise this thing so all teams had at least 6 days between games to ensure fairness.

 

[gingergenius]

yep, they could have put an extra week into the schedule and had teams playing only on Friday/ Saturday/ Sunday.

But then all the European clubs would have got cross because that's an extra week without their best players.

They could have started it a week earlier and not ****** off the Europeans, because their players were missing anyway. But that would be just one week between the last 3N game and the start of the RWC. And moving the 3N even earlier would have ****** of the SH clubs.

But that's what I would have done, because it's ****ing stupid reading about teams like Georgia having to rest players, when they're struggling for depth as it is....

 

[Siva Tau]

Yeah disappointing to say the least. Irrespective of results nice to see all on level footing. Really enjoying watching Canada, Romania, Georgia........give them all a go IRB

 

[Toko_11]

yep, they could have put an extra week into the schedule and had teams playing only on Friday/ Saturday/ Sunday.

But then all the European clubs would have got cross because that's an extra week without their best players.

They could have started it a week earlier and not ****** off the Europeans, because their players were missing anyway. But that would be just one week between the last 3N game and the start of the RWC. And moving the 3N even earlier would have ****** of the SH clubs.

But that's what I would have done, because it's ****ing stupid reading about teams like Georgia having to rest players, when they're struggling for depth as it is....

Nothing unexpected there who gives a Sh** about ENC nations anyway. (did I get that right or what ?)

 

[gingergenius]

Nothing unexpected there who gives a Sh** about ENC nations anyway. (did I get that right or what ?)

correct. what people give a **** about is money, or people with money. Which in rugby is the 6N, 3N and all the big clubs in these countries.

 

[Tricia McMillan]

From a more neutral point of view, I was considering it in the context that upper seeds of the groups were getting a bit more preferential treatment as what occurs in any tournament hosted in a single location.

Doesn't make it any more "right" though, since I disagree with that principle as well; they should make it as even as possible in the spirit of competition.

 

[Siva Tau]

Just heard one team, either Namibia or Georgia to play 4 games in 16 days. I guess the IRB doesnt want to pay unnecessary accommodation. Disgusting.

 

[Shaggy]

From a more neutral point of view, I was considering it in the context that upper seeds of the groups were getting a bit more preferential treatment as what occurs in any tournament hosted in a single location.

Doesn't make it any more "right" though, since I disagree with that principle as well; they should make it as even as possible in the spirit of competition.

I think it's more to do with which teams will draw the biggest crowds on the weekends, and games not overlapping so that all of the games can be shown live on TV, rather than preferential treatment because of rankings.

There's more than an element of truth to what Ginger Genius has said about the money too ... unfortunately, the pre-world cup games are needed to generate money, to pay the players. We already see these tournaments condensed in World Cup year (such as the Tri-Nations), so to give these teams a fairer rest time by expanding the time the RWC runs for, would require a more give in these other schedules.

... I suppose they could do away with the Tri -Nations/four nations in RWC years, but then where does the money come from to pay the players?

 

[Tricia McMillan]

The tournament format is a little to blame, I think. 5 teams per group means that for any given "round" 4 teams will play and 1 team will not. Makes things a bit tricky if they want to have a reasonable amount of rest between a team's matches but don't want to have a team not play for two weeks.

 

[profitius]

I just heard Ireland will get 10 days rest after Wallabies game, whilst Namibia, Samoa and some others get 4 days. Was it not possible to organise this thing so all teams had at least 6 days between games to ensure fairness.

It doesn't matter with Ireland because they'll just put out their second team anyway. How many days between the Russia and italy game?

 

[munstermuffin]

Ye do all know that Ireland has a game every weekend and no 10 day rest. We play Saturday against OZ then Sunday (Sept 25) against Russia and lastly against Italy on Oct 2nd so I think you have misinformed info

 

[Shaggy]

The tournament format is a little to blame, I think. 5 teams per group means that for any given "round" 4 teams will play and 1 team will not. Makes things a bit tricky if they want to have a reasonable amount of rest between a team's matches but don't want to have a team not play for two weeks.

Exactly, if you expand the RWC duration, the other tournaments suffer, if you reduce the number of teams to 16, the teams get a better rest, but we don't get to see the Namibia's play at all ... if you make five groups of four, you will probably get more rest time, but complications as to who qualifies as the next best team for the quarter finals.

... Two separate tournaments run in conjunction, with maybe the top 16, and the next best 16 is an option, but we wouldn't get the Namibia's playing the top sides, and whether any of the TV companies would be interested in covering the second tournament is also debatable

... not sure what the best solution is

 

[Siva Tau]

Just read the schedule of fixtures again and of the top nations only SA is slightly effected. The rest are largely 2nd tier teams although the schedule of my team is disappointing to say the least. Whe you consider the entertainment value of Ireland & Scotland its staggering.

 

[Seaton]

Just heard one team, either Namibia or Georgia to play 4 games in 16 days. I guess the IRB doesnt want to pay unnecessary accommodation. Disgusting.

Unfortunately, there is always going to be one team in every group that is going to suffer worse than the others in a already poor format, as one team in every group is going to have to miss out on the opening weekend, as Georgia did, and if I am correct, the group stages are completed within what, 21/23 days? Which means 4/5 days are already chopped off as the 'non-participating' waits for an opposing team to rest up.

I know opening ceremonies tend to look better at night, but I really would have liked to see at least one more game on the opening day, and why just have one game today and tomorrow?

Edit: Never saw the second page, already been brought up...

 

[ZeFrenchy]

In each pool, the top seed (the four nations, by the IRB ranking when the pools were made) play with 7-day intervals. The rest accomodate: each matchday, the team that did not play the previous one plays against the team that played first previously. Than, that team that will have played with a four-day rest, gets the bye the following matchday, and so on.

 

[psychic duck]

16 teams is the answer in my opinion

but it would have to be a fair qualifying system which would get the most deserving teams in, no continental quota which basically guarantees Namibia's appearance every time

the current system just makes worse matches, like the walkover Georgia vs England will be on Sunday, but if it was a match followed by a decent rest Georgia could at least make the score respectable and maybe give England a scare even

however if anyone remembers the 2003 World Cup it was worse, Italy played 4 matches in 14 days

 

[gingergenius]

It's so simple.

Start world cup on Friday 2nd September. From then on for the next 4 weekends, 8 games (2 for each group). For TV reasons, so that every game gets aired kickoff times as follows (local time):

Fri: 19:30
Sat: 12:30, 14:30, 16:30, 18:30
Sun: 12:30, 14:30, 16:30

Then there's the Quarters, which take place the next weekend.
Semis the weekend after.
Next Friday night - 3rd place playoff. Saturday, final.

= 7 weeks of world cup, finished by the 22nd October (or 23rd because this years' final is on a Sunday).

This leaves a week between games. Most teams will get 2 weeks off at one point in the group stages, but the 6N and 3N regularly go on halts for 2 week periods, it's not a problem.

 

[Diego]

Here is an interesting article on the subject:

Is the Rugby World Cup group play unfair?

The 2011 Rugby World Cup is underway, hosts New Zealand have looked strong so far, and defending champions South Africa barely got by Wales in their first match with a 17-16 victory. The United States also notched a win against Russia, only their third in the history of the competition, and first against a team not named Japan.

I was discussing the Rugby World Cup with a friend in Canada who is quite passionate about the sport, and he noted that Canada coach Kieran Crowley went public with his criticism of the scheduling of group play in the Rugby World Cup. In an article on The Telegraph, Crowley is quoted saying:

“It makes me laugh really when tier-two countries have four-day turnarounds and all the tier-one countries have seven-day turnarounds and eight-day turnarounds,â€

​

My friend even found a nice table showing team rank, and the turn around between matches.


World Rnk Country 1-2 2-3 3-4 Avg
Pool A
1 NZ 7 8 8 7.67
5 France 8 6 7 7.00
12 Tonga 5 7 11 7.67
13 Japan 6 5 6 5.67
14 Canada 4 9 5 6.00


Pool B
4 England 8 6 7 7.00
7 Scotland 4 11 6 7.00
9 Argentina 7 8 7 7.33
16 Georgia 4 10 4 6.00
17 Romania 7 7 4 6.00


Pool C
2 Australia 6 6 8 6.67
8 Ireland 9 7 5 7.00
11 Italy 6 8 7 7.00
18 USA 4 8 4 5.33
19 Russia 5 5 6 5.33


Pool D
3 South Africa 6 5 8 6.33
6 Wales 7 8 6 7.00
10 Samoa 4 7 5 5.33
15 Fiji 7 8 7 7.33
20 Namibia 4 8 4 5.33


You will notice that as you go down each table, there is a tendency for the weaker teams to have to play on shorter turn around. The real loser seems to be Samoa, who despite their #10 world ranking, has a 5.33 day average turn around, the lowest for any team. While Canada and other “minnow†teams have said they just have to deal with the issue in any way they can (Tonga for example had to change 11 members from their starting squad because of a lack of rest), I got the feeling there was probably something else that played into the scheduling. Television broadcast.


The tendency is that weekend matches, such as those hosted on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday tend to have higher ratings, as people will tend to have more leisure time to watch matches. Sure enough, looking at hosts New Zealand (Ranked #1) play schedule, they play on Friday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday during group play. Australia (Ranked #3) play on Saturday, Sunday, Friday, Saturday. Namibia (Ranked #20, last in the tournament) plays on Saturday, Wednesday, Thursday, Monday. Of course most of the minnows get a weekend game, but most of those are against the top ranked teams. I haven’t analyzed the full schedule, but the implications seem clear. The Rugby World Cup wants to maximize viewership, and they believe to do this, would be to schedule teams that are strongest on days that are best for television viewing.



Tournament Spokesperson Mike Jaspers pretty much confirmed this:

“This is a tournament with global interest, not just New Zealand. Factors considered were fan appeal, broadcast and commercial considerations as well as player welfare. So we think this is a fair and balanced schedule for all teams while also achieving the best result in terms of the wider interests of the game,â€

​

Doesn’t seem to fair to me, Jaspers adds:

“The broadcast revenues that are generated by scheduling around the top nations’ matches are reinvested by the IRB (International Rugby Board) to increase the competitiveness of the so-called smaller nations.â€

​

I’d really like to know exactly how that is being done.


H/T (Hat-Tip) to donimator for pointing out these facts to me.

http://ijsf.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/is-the-rugby-world-cup-group-play-unfair/

 

[Seaton]

"It makes me laugh really when tier-two countries have four-day turnarounds and all the tier-one countries have seven-day turnarounds and eight-day turnarounds,"

That's right, is it?

Funny, I thought a Tier-one country played yesterday, following a game on Saturday...

 

[Tricia McMillan]

Don't mean to bump an old thread, but I had another thought about the short turnaround for smaller teams. While everyone's pointing to the fact that big teams who attract large crowds and television audiences get to play on the weekend, I thought about how some of these smaller teams aren't fully professional and aren't extremely well funded. Staying in the host country costs a lot of money, and the shorter turnarounds enable them to spend less time in the host country, thus spending less money, since they're generally not expected to reach the quarterfinals.

Not saying that justifies, say, making Namibia play 4 test matches in 16 days, but I just wanted to write this thought down somewhere before I forgot.