South African Government To Seize Farms From White Farmers

Discussion in 'The Clubhouse Bar' started by Da Grappla, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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  3. munstermuffin

    munstermuffin Senior Member

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    How does the Government work over there?
     
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  4. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler Senior Member

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    Did they look at Zimbabwe and think "yes, that's what we should do"?
     
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  5. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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  6. GarethGriffiths

    GarethGriffiths BANNED!!!

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    Bunch of racists tbh.
     
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  7. profitius

    profitius Senior Member

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    It's not just the farms. They're forcing quotas on companies too and SA's infrastructure is crumbling.


    You won't hear about the farm murders in the media though.
     
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  8. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    .... and in his grave, Madiba weeps!
     
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  9. unrated

    unrated Senior Member

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    Its not just farmland or rural land they are proposing that all land even those in the cities get transfered so that the government owns the land. Instead of the people. The government will then lease your own land back to you. If you are white they will subdivide your land and also lease it to black people. Apparently we would still be allowed to stay on the land that has been taken away, so that is nice :).

    The thing is The government think they are very populistic by saying :"hey people we will take the land from the white minority and give it to the black majority" But whats actually being proposed is we take it from the white minority and instead give it to government. So now even less people own land. I don't understand how not even populistic people are not seeing this.

    There is also this idea that whites in SA just took everything they wanted but at least in my case its not true. My family had no land until long after Apartheid in 94. We worked every year and eventually bought our own land in 2003 from a black person.
    So if the government want to come take that away and say it was stolen then they are batshit crazy. But then again we know they aren't rational they just act on the policies that they feel will keep them in power with the black majority and that is the expropriation of land without compensation. Most of the general folk of South Africa don't really understand the economics. Because if something like this happens not only will there be a mass sell off assets, and mass migration of our skilled workforce but other factors come into play such as investor confidence and The perception of Interventionism in the market. If our economy suffers because of this and sure enough it will as we are heavily dependent on foreign investors for GDP growth then our economy will continue to slide beyond Junk status. Making it harder to get jobs. So if i'm correct about everything i just mentioned and that's a big if then after this land expropriation without compensation policy will not only cause less South African to own land but our economy will be destroyed and the dependency for government grants will skyrocket as many more people would now be jobless and become dependants of the state. Its kind of like socialism but with much less benefits.

    Something to note though: This policy is against our constitution so the ANC who has majority in parliament has proposed an amendment of the constitution which was passed. the decision now moves to a working committee that will need to assess the pros and cons of this and report back to the executive before august of this year i think. The ANC fears a weak result at the elections next year so this is kind of them trying a last ditch move to win over the public and avoid being voted out. I cant even deny that its a smart move on their part. Heck if i was a political strategist and had no empathy for the affected people then i would have done the exact same thing.
     
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  10. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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    Thousands Sign Petition Asking Trump to Let White Farmers in South Africa Migrate to U.S. After Country Votes to Force Them Off Land

    Updated | More than 12,000 people have signed a petition asking President Donald Trump to let white people in South Africa emigrate to the U.S. amid a vote by the country's parliament favoring a motion that could see South Africa's constitution amended to allow for land to be stripped from owners without any compensation.

    The motion, which will still need the approval of the South African Parliament's Constitutional Review Committee before an amendment can even be drafted, has once again stoked fears among the country's white farmers of a violent and disastrous land redistribution akin to that which crippled Zimbabwe in the 2000s.

    The online petition calls on Trump to "take the steps necessary to initiate an emergency immigration plan allowing white Boers to come to the United States." Boer
    is the term used to describe South Africans of Dutch, German or Huguenot descent, who are also commonly referred to as Afrikaners.
     
  11. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    It's interesting to see what the rest of the world is being fed by our media. I however think that a lot will happen before this matter will be resolved, and there are a few things that will need to be taken into consideration.

    First of all, it was not the Ruling Party that tabled this motion, it was Julius Malema from the EFF (who was the ANC Youth League leader). This after the ANC shot down this proposal 2 years ago. Malema has a vendetta, and is now trying to win votes from the poor South Africans by tabling motions, the ANC didn't table, basically this is a move to get more voters to join the EFF and leave the ANC. Because I think many South Africans will vote ANC now that Ramaphosa is president.

    What this motion is about, is to amend our Constitution's section 25 regarding land and ownership thereof. And in order to do that, Parliament must have a 2/3 majority vote. Whether that will happen is something we don't know yet, and what deals will be made behind closed doors we also don't know.

    But it will basically cripple our banking sector. 90% of the agricultural land in SA have mortgage bonds registered over them, some even having more than one bond. If the Government goes ahead with this stupid plan, they will basically take the land, and not pay the bank anything. The Owner of the property will then be freed from his financial obligation to the bank, and the bank will lose the money.

    What Mr. Malema and his chronies forgot is that if you table this motion, it will be on all land, and not just agricultural land. Our Constitution doesn't seperate between agricultural land, land for commercial use, residential use or industrial use, it just talks of land in general. So what this means is that every square inch of land in SA will be up for grabs by the government. And this will have a massive impact on the economy.

    But fear not, as there are other articles in our constitution that has to be taken into consideration, and even if this is passed, and section 25 has to be amended, the Constitutional Court can still rule that the amended legislation interferes with the other sections in the same constitution, and that it be scrapped/amended/reverted.

    The government has been doing land expropriation since the early 2000's, and there are many examples of how they gave those very productive farms to a black community, only for it to become a wasteland.

    The other issue is that if residential property becomes expropriated, then everyone will become squatters, and there are laws that protects them from having to leave immediately, in some cases squatters can stay up to 5 years on a property they don't own/rent legally.
     
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  12. unrated

    unrated Senior Member

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    1. Yes the EFF was the ones who tabled the motion, but the ANC has had a policy shift in recent years and has been campaigning on the idea of expropriation without compensation. This is not only a move by the EFF to gain voters but also by the ANC as when the campaigning for the 2019 elections start the ANC will use the narrative "Vote for us because in our current term we started the process of land redistribution."

    2. Parliament already had the vote and it has been passed. A committee now has to asses the amendments. The committee consists of members of parliament based on proportional representation, so basically the presence of EFF and ANC members in this committee will ensure that they uphold the policy agenda of the party they represent which is radical redistribution of land. The DA can put forth their reports on how damaging this will be to our economy but ultimately and this is just my opinion, logic will be disregarded in favour of pushing this amendment through in the hope of securing as many votes as possible. The ANC know they are in trouble in terms of voter numbers and i feel its comparable to this example. Lets say North Korea participated in conventional warfare with the United states. Both sides possess nuclear weapons but are more than likely to avoid using them with the fear of mutual destruction. If North Korea or less likely the USA are on the brink of defeat surely nuclear will be a last resort option as the losing nation has nothing to lose since they are about to collapse in any case. Getting back to the local politics if the ANC feels severely threatened that they might lose the next election, then they always have the "nuclear option" of just giving the populists what they want disregarding economic stability in an effort to stay in power.

    4. This makes the problem even worse as people who legally invested in land after the fall of apartheid will now be affected. Presumably black land owners might also lose land to the State.

    5. Excuse my ignorance on this specific matter. This is where i hope the people has a fighting chance once all the legislative paperwork for the expropriation of land without compensation has been finalised. The fear i had though was will people be able to challenge this in the constitutional court if the constitution has actually been amended to allow this. I notice you mentioned that if the legislation interferes with other sections of the constitution then it can be scrapped. But if it does then surely the ANC and EFF will then start the process of amending those parts that interferes. is there a chance that if the amendments are made that a court not necessarily the constitutional court can reverse it?

    Lastly i want to pose a question. The constitutional court is headed by our Chief justice Mogoeng Mogoeng. Who was appointed by former ANC president Jacob Zuma. When it comes to that point that this is challenged in the constitutional court can the impartiality of the chief justice be reasonably expected?
     
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  13. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    The motion was carried in Parliament. There is still a long way to go before they implement it. They will do the investigation first, look at the feasibility, then they will have to draft the amendment, and then they will go through a green paper and white paper process, and if they succeed through those 2 steps, only then will it be put to parliament to approve, and if they still succeed, then, it will become part of the constitution.

    All land owners will lose. no matter what your colour is. Even Ramaphosa will lose his big buffalo farm here in Limpopo if they do this...

    Remember that Justice Mogoeng is just the Chief Justice, but he's not the only one that presides at Constitutional hearings. They will be a full panel of 12 judges that will hear the case. And Justice Mogoeng is one of the best there are, he's actually one of the view guys Zuma got right... Not that there were many others who was available to do the job.

    As for the constitution itself, there are many sections that will not correspond with the amendment, and the Bill of Rights, which is part of the Constitution have many sections where there will be a recourse for people to take this matter to court.

    We also have to take into consideration our international law and agreements, and the policies we signed in the past. Unlike Zimbabwe, we signed a lot of treaties with UN Countries, and I'm pretty sure that they will have a say in what's going on here.

    Lastly, the fact that even black people such as Mr. Lekota and Black economic forums are against this plan, makes me think that this won't work.

    If all the land returns to the state, then there won't be any use for Deeds Offices, Conveyancing Attorneys, Estate Agents, Bond Originators, Rental Agencies, etc...

    The unemployment figure with skyrocket!
     
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  14. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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    Nothing like having an agent on the field...Clearly this goes way deeper than what it looks like and of course it's not a pure Black&White (no pun intented) thing as one would be tempted to think
     
  15. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Our office received an interesting article yesterday from one of the Law Societies in SA, stating that there are talks that the plan is to just do land expropriation without compensation on agricultural land that is more than 12000 hectares. But the issue with that is the geography of the country. For instance, in the Northern Cape, 12000 hectares of farmland is nothing much and is mostly used for sheep as the area is extremely dry and there's not much vegetation. But in Limpopo where there's a lot more rain, 12000 hectares is a lot, and in most cases those farms are big commercial farms used for exporting products such as potatoes, tomatoes, Citrus etc.

    It appears that the plan is to make a differentiation in the Constitution between Agricultural Land and Residential Land. But this brings out some other issues. First off, the Northern Cape, the least populated region in SA. It's dry, hot and uncompromising. I doubt that you would get many people who would stand in line to run a farm in that area if they are not from that area. Plus your options as to what you can farm there are very limited, some farms haven't had a single drop of rain in the past 4 years.

    I'll keep you guys updated on this issue and if there are any developments...
     
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  16. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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    Pretty interesting what you are explaining about how there is a check and balances systems so every move is accountable.

    I wouldn't say is smart, just oportunistic in the sense it's smart just in a short term perspective. Well...it's smart, but not inteligent if you know what I mean.
     
  17. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    What is very ironic for me, is that Julius Malema is about to lose his own farm, because he didn't pay his taxes, and our Revenue Services got a court order to repossess his house to be sold on auction in order for them to get the money back.

    If they do land expropriation in it's totality, how the hell will they be able to recover debt on taxes???
     
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  18. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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  19. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    How nice of them. Why don't they instead take the matter up with the UN and try and stop it from happening, or are our farmers held in such high regard?
     
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  20. Da Grappla

    Da Grappla Senior Member

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    More and more news pop up every day

    Populists Can Abuse South Africa Land Exproriation, Nene Says

    [​IMG]

    Land expropriation without compensation would be dealt with in a “responsible manner” that addresses social challenges without affecting the economy negatively, South African Finance Minister Nhlanhla Nene said.

    The government will have concrete proposals for land reform “on the table” by August, Nene told reporters in London after a series of meetings with investors. The issue “has the potential to be abused” for political purposes, he said.

    A parliamentary committee is currently looking at amending the constitution to allow land seizures without compensation, a change the main opposition Democratic Alliance says will deter investment and curb agricultural production. The ruling African National Congress, backed by the opposition Economic Freedom Fighters, argues that existing mechanisms to address inequalities in land ownership are inadequate.

    The ANC decided at its December conference, where it elected Cyril Ramaphosa as leader, to pursue expropriation without compensation and also to change legislation to make the central bank state-owned instead of being in private hands. This is not a priority and the Reserve Bank’s mandate and independence is not in question, Nene said.

    Read more about the ANC’s plan to change the central bank’s ownership

    South Africa is committed to fiscal consolidation, both on the revenue and expenditure side, and would look to increase capacity at the South African Revenue Service to improve tax collection, Nene said.

    The minister and Treasury officials met with Fitch Ratings Ltd. and Moody’s Investors Service on Monday, Nene said. South Africa’s seeking to avoid a cut to sub-investment grade by Moody’s which in November put the nation on review for a downgrade.


    The Treasury’s team is scheduled to meet investors in New York later this week.





    I don't know the guy but I clearly smell the scent of the liar..."responsible manner" that addresses the social challenges
     
  21. unrated

    unrated Senior Member

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    SA government denies anything is happening to the international community. Instead say groups like Afriforum should keep quite as they are causing panic. Damn right they should be causing panic.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/201...te-farmers_a_23385412/?utm_hp_ref=za-homepage

    In the end the white people of SA should reject this idea of becoming refugees. I see people is lobbying trump to allow the white South Africans as refugees. And now Australia is also taking notice.
    Becoming refugees (In a SA context) is the easy way out (Not in all contexts such as Syria just to make it very clear).
     
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