The new Super 15 format is kind of bullshit..

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Well, I think the Lions will surprise you this season. They are not as bad as they were. On the other hand, same goes for SA or AU teams playing the Crusaders and Chiefs in stead of the Highlanders and Hurricanes

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Of course, I simply ment it as an example rather than actaully stating who the good and bad teams will be next year.

each confernece will have the same problems, it is really only a disadvantage when comparing your results with other teams in the same conference.

 

[Teh Mite]

Double the number of teams then there can be individual country leagues that all go into a playoff. Or even qualify for a separate title the following season between the top 6 or so of each league.

Hold on...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

See, that's the problem. The Super15 is not a competition with provincial clubs but franchises. That makes it a competition completely seperate from the Currie Cup and ITM Cup

 

[Kiwiwomble]

awesome! my fav topic! I am a huge fam of making the super comp in NZ more like the champions league in europe

the top five teams from the ITM Cup go through to the super comp, generall you will get the same team each year but every so often the BOP or Hawkes Bay will get super rugby in their town

sure, the teams doing well will attract players over other but that happens now with canterbury anyway

also only give people one team to cheer for which should help re-build the connection with the supporters

 

[Wally]

Well, Only 2 months away from the new Super Rugby season and for the first time with an uneven number of teams. A whole new setup as we suggested before with 3 conferences, we have something to look forward to. Each team plays at least 16 matches and another possible 3 in the play-offs.

The squads of the NZ franchises are already published but I haven't seen any official news from the Australian and South African franchises. In Round 1 we only have 1 cross-conference match with Brumbies - Chiefs. The other 6 matches are all conference-matches with Stormers sitting out the first round.

After giving it some thought I have to say I understand where the new format is coming from. With a home and away-system within each conference they are trying to build a certain local rivalry. Australia doesn't have any provincial rugby and in South Africa the franchises are based on mostly 1 province (Free State Cheetahs being the exception). In between we have the teams of New Zealand. NZ has a provincial competition but the franchises are build up from 4 or sometimes even 5 provincial teams. Not much appealing for fans to cheer for.

In South Africa there is no problem with finding people to fill the stands. The Sharks are only drawing from the provincial Natal Sharks, Stormers draw from Western Province (and officially Boland but what player has made it through?). Same goes for the Bulls and Lions who don't really look outside their main source. Griquas-fans are maybe the ones feeling left out since they have to cheer for a team which uses the name of their rival in provincial rugby, the Cheetahs.

With the Super 15 creating a home and away-competition within the conferences itself, this might draw more people to the matches in Australia and New Zealand. I really hope so because it's sad to see the Hurricanes for instance play for 500 people in a stadium that can hold 20.000


So, does this new format have some good elements or is it all crap?

I daresay no team has ever played to even close to 500 fans.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The whole idea to connect the 2 is something I've been thinking about for so long. Why not create some sort of Heineken Cup-format where 4 teams of each South Africa, Australia and New Zealand advance to the Super Rugby competition. Add 2 teams from Argentina and since it's provincial clubs, the feeling is more intense for the supporters.

There's 1 big problem though... How about the Australian teams? They don't have a domestic competition....

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

These are matches played between 2 teams of the same conference during the 2010 Super14 season.

Blues-Hurricanes: 23000
Western Force-Brumbies: 17268
Cheetahs-Bulls: 22100
Crusaders-Highlanders: 22793
Reds-Waratahs: 22582
Lions-Stormers: 13850
Highlanders-Blues: 6700
Sharks-Cheetahs: 21926
Crusaders-Blues: 23000
Chiefs-Crusaders: 17800
Reds-Western Force: 20016
Western Force-Waratahs: 14718
Stormers-Cheetahs: 43089
Hurricanes-Crusaders: 20248
Chiefs-Highlanders: 11000
Lions-Sharks: 24387
Bulls-Lions: 24638
Bulls-Sharks: 50000
Sharks-Stormers: 30452
Stormers-Bulls: 48739

The average is 20,901 per match

What worries me is that only the stadiums in South Africa seem to fill up for Super Rugby. Why is that?

 

[Seaton]

The crowds have been dropping for some time, remember a former All Black saying that
In the late 1990s that the NZ crowds were nearly twice the size of what they are now

Don't know why they have dropped there, but in Oz, the sport is at an all-time low
In terms of popularity

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Someone else said it might have a financial cause because the tickets are too expensive... LH, how much is a ticket for a Super Rugby match in Durban?

 

[nickdnz]

Well, I think the Lions will surprise you this season. They are not as bad as they were. On the other hand, same goes for SA or AU teams playing the Crusaders and Chiefs in stead of the Highlanders and Hurricanes

Terrible example. Hurricanes have made it to the semis two of the last three years, and were one win away from making the semi's again this year. They've got a better record than the Chiefs. Four New Zealand team are within a shot of winning the S14. No other country can boast that, which is why it is going to be much harder or a New Zealand franchise to get through, than an Australian or South African team. Let's face it, the Lions, Cheetahs, Force and probably Rebels, don't have a hope in hell of winning half their games. I think out of the above mentioned teams, the Cheetahs are the only team who can beat any of their other, more competitive franchise.

 

[The big Kangaroo]

Super Rugby Wins by Country
<TABLE class=wikitable><TBODY><TR><TH>Country</TH><TH>Wins</TH><TH>Runner-up</TH></TR><TR><TD>

New Zealand</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>6</TD></TR><TR><TD>

South Africa</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>7</TD></TR><TR><TD>

Australia</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>5</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I also thought I should include this

having more teams helps

 

[nickdnz]

having more teams helps

Why on earth would it help? Silly statement. If your talents spread around more teams, it's going to make each, individual team weaker, isn't it. If I have a squad of 30 Internationals and only two teams, I could essentially put 15 Internationals starting in each team. If I spread the talent equally around three teams, I could fit 10 Internationals in each team, so it is slightly weaker. With four teams, which Australia has had, I could equally give my teams 7.5 Players. With five teams, which South Africa and New Zealand currently have, there can be only 6 Internationals per team.

However while New Zealand has spread it's quality players fairly equally around five franchises, South Africa have only three competitive franchises, and two space fillers. As such, we can see South Africa's Super 14 results improve dramatically, much like the Auckland Blues back in the early 90's. Having less competitive teams, help out a huge amount, while trying to maintain five competitive teams, means you have to have a very large player pool to drain from, and it will spread your best players through out the franchises.

 

[Amobokoboko]

The crowds have been dropping for some time, remember a former All Black saying that
In the late 1990s that the NZ crowds were nearly twice the size of what they are now

Don't know why they have dropped there, but in Oz, the sport is at an all-time low
In terms of popularity

The wages in NZ aren't that high and if you have a loan, kids etc... you won't have the money to go and see Super rugby live as you can watch it in your local pub.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

The system is very similar to American Football (NFL). Yes, you do get teams that make it to the playoffs that should not, but they almost always lose the first game. So really the teams with the harder schedule have a far better chance of wining Super 15 if they make the playoffs.

Also, a lot of you have not looked at the positive. IMO this format can allow for the bad teams to have less matches with great teams. They would then get more points and make it into the playoffs. Now it is do or die, these underdogs are given the chance to put it all on the line. While before they would have never gotten close to qualifying.

 

[Faatau82]

The main problem is nearly all leagues i've ever heard of have an even number of teams. 15 is just bizarre to say the least. It distorts and makes all kinds of issues for a competition. When you think one idea is good, it will disadvantage in a different way.

My suggestion is (if you are listening SupeRugby chiefs ) you could have the 3 national conferences of 5 teams, where the teams play home and away games against just their group opponents.. that makes an equal amount of home and away games. Totalling 8 purely domestic games. Then, the top team in each group will qualify for the 3-team round-robin, like the tri-nations, but they'd play home and away. So that's another 4 games. The winner of that group final, is SupeRugby champion. As each team would play the other home and away, there is no home/away draw advantage.

As for the 2nd-5th place teams in each conference, the final format is repeated for each all the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th placed teams. So essentially, every team will play 12 games, and it will determine actual placings from 1 to 15.

So, an individual team would have 8 games in each group, then it can be totally fair that the best regional teams win. No easy games against 'weak' franchises as such. It would also give much better travel costs, fans would prefer more local derbies.. ok, so you don't get all the cross-conference games so much, but really the distances are so far in these 3 nations, that away travel is nigh on impossible.. but no matter what team you support, you will.. after the 'regular season' play what would really be hopefully an equal performing team from the other 2 sanzar nations, home and away.

They could use the idea that Seven's has, which is to give a trophy for each tier, so every team will have something to play for (Plate, Shield).. and it will be realistic for what they've actually achieved in the regular season.



The winner of the Super15 could then play the Heineken Cup winner at some point, and we'd have a world champion too.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The whole idea to connect the 2 is something I've been thinking about for so long. Why not create some sort of Heineken Cup-format where 4 teams of each South Africa, Australia and New Zealand advance to the Super Rugby competition. Add 2 teams from Argentina and since it's provincial clubs, the feeling is more intense for the supporters.

There's 1 big problem though... How about the Australian teams? They don't have a domestic competition....

thats not too complicated, the super comp has always let each nation control its own team, am i mistaking in thinking in the super 12 it use to be the top four currie cup teams? Im sure it was something like that, they did cange a couple of times.

just leave it up to the aussies, they keep their five teams, if in time they build some sort of under comp then they can reevaluate

I can say personally that i started to loose some interest after four years in the uk where everything is so interlinked, promotion, relegation, european comps, cups etc....and then i came home and after loosing three games in the ITM its..."oh, seasons over, no way back now we'll just wait for the super comp"....then after loosing three games...."oh, seasons over, no way back now we'll just wait for the ITM Cup"....nothing ment anything, they arent playing for anyting....dont win, try again next year.

im hoping this year will be better simply with the local rivalry deal but in the end the same problems are still there.

that is why the champions league is so special, it is really two years work, first to get in and then to win it, four tranfer windows so the team changes and fixes its problems etc....I dream of something that good in rugby

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The main problem is nearly all leagues i've ever heard of have an even number of teams. 15 is just bizarre to say the least. It distorts and makes all kinds of issues for a competition. When you think one idea is good, it will disadvantage in a different way.

My suggestion is (if you are listening SupeRugby chiefs ) you could have the 3 national conferences of 5 teams, where the teams play home and away games against just their group opponents.. that makes an equal amount of home and away games. Totalling 8 purely domestic games. Then, the top team in each group will qualify for the 3-team round-robin, like the tri-nations, but they'd play home and away. So that's another 4 games. The winner of that group final, is SupeRugby champion. As each team would play the other home and away, there is no home/away draw advantage.

As for the 2nd-5th place teams in each conference, the final format is repeated for each all the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th placed teams. So essentially, every team will play 12 games, and it will determine actual placings from 1 to 15.

So, an individual team would have 8 games in each group, then it can be totally fair that the best regional teams win. No easy games against 'weak' franchises as such. It would also give much better travel costs, fans would prefer more local derbies.. ok, so you don't get all the cross-conference games so much, but really the distances are so far in these 3 nations, that away travel is nigh on impossible.. but no matter what team you support, you will.. after the 'regular season' play what would really be hopefully an equal performing team from the other 2 sanzar nations, home and away.

They could use the idea that Seven's has, which is to give a trophy for each tier, so every team will have something to play for (Plate, Shield).. and it will be realistic for what they've actually achieved in the regular season.



The winner of the Super15 could then play the Heineken Cup winner at some point, and we'd have a world champion too.

I really like that idea! at least the cross-conference game have some sort of logic to them rather than just at random, first half give people local rivalry games, which is used to seed the finals series, you finish forth in your pool and you know you are playing for 9th place overall, you finish second and you are playing for forth

 

[Faatau82]

See, it has been said before.. i should be on the board of the iRB. First thing i'd do is revoke Stade Francais' TOP14 license, and make them play in some amateur homosexual league.. oh and make Toulon only able to sign players who's surnames begin with X.