The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

[TRF_heineken]

Not sure whether you misunderstood my point or you disagree. I said french teams (plural), but English and other teams apply. Not talking about national sides, but Racing 92, Munster, Wasps, etc.

As far as i understand, you need to have 30 tests to be able to play abroad and wear the springbok jersey. That intuitively conflicts with what Jason wrote, hence my question.

The 30-test cap rule is not a political decision though, and shouldn't be used in the same breath as the quota system.

The 30-test cap rule is more a plan to have the local players have a chance to represent SA than those who went abroad for the sake of money.

Exceptions have been made though. Jan Serfontein and Steven Kitshoff are examples of that. Kitshoff didn't have 30 caps behind his name when he was in France, and he got to keep on playing for SA, because he is a long term prospect, and there was assurances given that he will return to SA (which he did).

Jan Serfontein on the other hand, had 29 caps for the Boks when he went to France last year. But he was still selected for the boks even after arriving in France. He has since got more than 30 caps, and is still eligible for the Bokke.

But yeah, there are a couple of guys who are abroad who still needs to make their international debut, that I'd pick for the Springboks. Chris Cloete, Ruan Ackerman and Cheslin Kolbe springs to mind...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Thank you, I understand it is not political, but that wasn't his point, at least not according to what he wrote.

Since he said that basically, all that matters is that the best get to play for the national team, i am asking how does he reconcile that with the fact that under the current rules, that could very well not be the case.

I had RJvR in mind to be honest.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thank you, I understand it is not political, but that wasn't his point, at least not according to what he wrote.

Since he said that basically, all that matters is that the best get to play for the national team, i am asking how does he reconcile that with the fact that under the current rules, that could very well not be the case.

I had RJvR in mind to be honest.

RJvR is still a Lions contracted player, and is only playing in England during our off season. He will be back for the Lions for Super Rugby.

Exactly the same applies to him than for guys who are playing in Japan during the off season/Currie Cup. RG Snyman will be back for the Bulls for Super Rugby, and also therefore be eligible for the Boks.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Didn't know that about RJvR (did knew about Japan).
Thanks you.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So it's rather slow pace here in SA with regards to rugby issues. But Siya Kolisi has made an interesting comment recently which has been fueling the local media:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Spr...-wouldnt-have-supported-quota-system-20190107

Springbok captain Siya Kolisi says he does not want to be picked because of the colour of his skin and that former President Nelson Mandela would not support a quota system in South African sport.

Kolisi was speaking to Kyodo News during a recent trip to Japan where he was speaking as an ambassador for Panasonic.

Kolisi, the first black man to ever captain the Springboks, was asked about how Mandela would have responded to the idea of transformation targets in national sports teams.

"I don't think he would have supported that, but I don't know him," Kolisi said.

Please read the full article, as Kolisi is making a very fair and interesting point, something most people in the know of rugby are also saying for many years now.

But what is interesting, is that he's now come under fire from some twitter users, some of them political and some are journalists:
https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/kolisis-madiba-comments-land-him-in-hot-water-20190108

I for one am glad that Kolisi made these remarks, and I think his timing if saying this is just perfect going into the World Cup year.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Did you just revive the thread you wanted to close down Heinneken?

On Kolisi, yes, but his point is primarily that:

a) the [black] talent is there if only if it nurtured
b) it is not being nurtured
c) if you don't go to a reasonable school you'll likely be malnourished and incapable from a young age of ever developing into a competitive athelete.

He's not necessarily saying transformation targets are awful, more that he wouldn't do it that way. He's saying it'd be great if kids were given an equal chance in life so that things like transformation would never be on the agenda. He has repeatedly spoken in the past about difficulties for kids from poorer backgrounds to get access to facilities, coaching etc. There is no way Kolisi would say that the status quo (with or without transformation) is acceptable.

Since the thread is back active. What has been the response to Rassie's selection policy since his statements on "quotas". It is reasonable to say he was picking 15-19 white players each game after re-selecting European based players, thereby clearly missing transformation targets for 2018. But he'd previously commented that he'd get in trouble if he missed those targets which made it sound like his selections were being forced. It is hard to make sense of.

Do we think Transformation targets for black and coloured players have been binned or just suspended? Perhaps until the Boks regain 3rd spot in the world (which is the target in the transformation document) Rassie will have a freer selection?

 

[mdaclarke]

I think the reality is that if there aren't the players there aren't the players.

Ultimately is seems that winning is the most important thing and Transformation comes 2nd.

Personally I am in favour of Transformation in the form of encouraging players and providing resources. I am implaccably hostile to quotas though in any form. There is no such thing as good racism.

 

[mdaclarke]

https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/...ts-about-sporting-chances-not-quotas-18757169

This article is very interesting. I agree with most (if not all) of it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/...ts-about-sporting-chances-not-quotas-18757169

This article is very interesting. I agree with most (if not all) of it.

Very good opinion article that. And he's basically emphasising what the twitterverse is not seeing from Kolisi's statement.

I think most people overlooked what Kolisi said in totality, because he used Madiba as a comparison, and most people will get offended if someone say that Madiba would be against something to improve the lives of black people, which he fought so hard for.

The thing is that Quotas or Transformation should not be done at the highest level, but rather at the lowest. It's the only way to ensure more black players get to the highest level, which will then stop the whole debate of being picked on colour instead of merit.

It's interesting because Rassie has been given a mandate, and he's trying to stick to it, but may not do it right every match, and for the first ever Black captain to say these things, does point out that the Rugby fraternity doesn't want the quotas, only the politicians. And based on the Sport Committee Chair's response yesterday:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Spr...ts-unfortunate-sport-committee-chair-20190109

It just shows that the politicians doesn't care at all about performance.

 

[mdaclarke]

Very good opinion article that. And he's basically emphasising what the twitterverse is not seeing from Kolisi's statement.

I think most people overlooked what Kolisi said in totality, because he used Madiba as a comparison, and most people will get offended if someone say that Madiba would be against something to improve the lives of black people, which he fought so hard for.

The thing is that Quotas or Transformation should not be done at the highest level, but rather at the lowest. It's the only way to ensure more black players get to the highest level, which will then stop the whole debate of being picked on colour instead of merit.

It's interesting because Rassie has been given a mandate, and he's trying to stick to it, but may not do it right every match, and for the first ever Black captain to say these things, does point out that the Rugby fraternity doesn't want the quotas, only the politicians. And based on the Sport Committee Chair's response yesterday:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Spr...ts-unfortunate-sport-committee-chair-20190109

It just shows that the politicians doesn't care at all about performance.

I wonder if this is just tough talk for internal South African political consumption as in reality the Government cannot impose legally enforceable quotas on the Springboks or the Franchises (other than Currie cup).

World Rugby would not tolerate explicit racial quotas nor will Super Rugby or the PRO14.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I wonder if this is just tough talk for internal South African political consumption as in reality the Government cannot impose legally enforceable quotas on the Springboks or the Franchises (other than Currie cup).

World Rugby would not tolerate explicit racial quotas nor will Super Rugby or the PRO14.

I think it's more a step in the right direction into getting the politicians to perhaps change their point of view on the matter, as this is now a black player saying this. But more so, it's the captain of the national team. He's basically the pinnacle of the entire nation when it comes to rugby status.

And the other thing is that this is an election year in South Africa, and if I was a betting man, I'd bet that some politicians might use this debate as a way of winning votes.

 

[unrated]

World Rugby would not tolerate explicit racial quotas nor will Super Rugby or the PRO14.

They do tolerate it, its happening in SA rugby. However we are not meeting the quotas yet as also stated in the above article that there simply is not the playing numbers yet to justify the target. Rassie is a sensible coach and dont want to risk his career or reputation so he is doing the best he can under the circumstances. But the quotas and targets are in place and just because we are not meeting them at the highest level does not mean that they are not there. The fact that government and SA rugby has publicly stated this and World Rugby has done nothing proves that they tolerate this.

 

[mdaclarke]

They tolerate the tough talk. But so far in respect of the Springboks and Super Rugby that is all it has been. The Springboks and Super Rugby Teams (and Pro 14 teams haven't met the Quotas/Targets but apart from a lot of loud words nothing seems to have happened.

I wonder what Super Rugby or World Rugby (or the Olympics for that matter) would do in one of the following?

1. The Springbok Squad Rassie selected was vetoed by the Courts of South Africa/Politicians (due to the colour of the players skin) and he was forced by law to pick another one? Or the Courts/politicians picked a new one for him?
2. A specific match squad for a world cup match was vetoed by the Courts/Politicians (due to the colour of the players skin) and he was forced by law to pick another one? Or the Courts/politicians picked a new one for him?

Repeat these 2 questions for Super Rugby, Pro 14, Olympics.

I would be very interested to see what they do?

 

[TRF_heineken]

They tolerate the tough talk. But so far in respect of the Springboks and Super Rugby that is all it has been. The Springboks and Super Rugby Teams (and Pro 14 teams haven't met the Quotas/Targets but apart from a lot of loud words nothing seems to have happened.

I wonder what Super Rugby or World Rugby (or the Olympics for that matter) would do in one of the following?

1. The Springbok Squad Rassie selected was vetoed by the Courts of South Africa/Politicians (due to the colour of the players skin) and he was forced by law to pick another one? Or the Courts/politicians picked a new one for him?
2. A specific match squad for a world cup match was vetoed by the Courts/Politicians (due to the colour of the players skin) and he was forced by law to pick another one? Or the Courts/politicians picked a new one for him?

Repeat these 2 questions for Super Rugby, Pro 14, Olympics.

I would be very interested to see what they do?

Ah, but this is where those slimy politicians connive plans to do it in such a manner that it doesn't become a spectacle. They do these things behind closed doors.

Remember during the 2015 Cricket World Cup semi-final between SA and NZ, Kyle Abbott was left out of the team and Vernon Philander was picked in his place just for that match due to political interference. Abbott was playing every match before that game, and Philander only played one, and was injured. Abbott was also one of our leading wicket takers in the tournament. We ended up losing that match, and only afterwards we found out that the government played a part in our demise.

 

[mdaclarke]

Ah, but this is where those slimy politicians connive plans to do it in such a manner that it doesn't become a spectacle. They do these things behind closed doors.

Remember during the 2015 Cricket World Cup semi-final between SA and NZ, Kyle Abbott was left out of the team and Vernon Philander was picked in his place just for that match due to political interference. Abbott was playing every match before that game, and Philander only played one, and was injured. Abbott was also one of our leading wicket takers in the tournament. We ended up losing that match, and only afterwards we found out that the government played a part in our demise.

I can't see that happening to Rassie. He's a very strong character and winning is too important for him. He's also a clever operator (Kolisi as captain). He will try to pick a squad that meets the targets so long as it does not impact on performance. However if he has to choose between winning and transformation, my feeling is that he will choose winning.

I could be wrong but this is my opinion

 

[TRF_heineken]

I can't see that happening to Rassie. He's a very strong character and winning is too important for him. He's also a clever operator (Kolisi as captain). He will try to pick a squad that meets the targets so long as it does not impact on performance. However if he has to choose between winning and transformation, my feeling is that he will choose winning.

I could be wrong but this is my opinion

I agree. But also, he has nothing to lose if he doesn't stick to the targets during the playoffs matches in the RWC, because he's not going to be the coach after the World Cup...

 

[mdaclarke]

Rassie is the main reason I have the Springboks as my favourites for the World Cup this year. I really fancy them to win it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Rassie is the main reason I have the Springboks as my favourites for the World Cup this year. I really fancy them to win it.

Shhhhh!!

Don't you dare jinx us!

 

[petite]

a few decades from now , you ll need a quota for whites

 

[TRF_heineken]

So this article made headlines yesterday:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/sas-sporting-racial-quotas-challenged-in-court-20190306

Now, Please read this but don't take the tone of the writer too seriously as they are trying to downplay this article. I've seen on facebook there is a massive battle in the media in trying to quash any mention of this court case.

What is interesting though is that the same organisation this past week had a victory against the SA Schools Athletics organisation in relation to a quota of 40% for athletes in schools, which caused a major uproar by parents all over the country. Then after Solidarity intervened, a day after, SASA then retracted their letter and said they will conform to the same system as Athletics South Africa.

Now, the idea of the court case, is that they are approaching the Labour Court. Which tells me that they are going to use this as a platform for unfair labour practice. And after their victory against SASA, they will argue that children should not be exposed to racial discrimination. Which is a good move by them IMHO in order to get the court to agree to hear the case.