The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

Bruce_ma_goose

First XV
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
3,835
Reaction score
807
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Italy

Perish the thought that anyone in SA should be exposed to racial discrimination and have their life chances impacted from birth by their race. How many Unis now have Afrikaans as their official teaching language?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-47001468

Actually a good news story if fundamental barriers to top level education are finally being broken down a mere quarter century after the fall of apartheid.

Get things like that addressed and then maybe people like myself will be more sympathetic towards legal efforts around rugby.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
592
Reaction score
103
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

So this article made headlines yesterday:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/sas-sporting-racial-quotas-challenged-in-court-20190306

Now, Please read this but don't take the tone of the writer too seriously as they are trying to downplay this article. I've seen on facebook there is a massive battle in the media in trying to quash any mention of this court case.

What is interesting though is that the same organisation this past week had a victory against the SA Schools Athletics organisation in relation to a quota of 40% for athletes in schools, which caused a major uproar by parents all over the country. Then after Solidarity intervened, a day after, SASA then retracted their letter and said they will conform to the same system as Athletics South Africa.

Now, the idea of the court case, is that they are approaching the Labour Court. Which tells me that they are going to use this as a platform for unfair labour practice. And after their victory against SASA, they will argue that children should not be exposed to racial discrimination. Which is a good move by them IMHO in order to get the court to agree to hear the case.

I think Solidarity might lose this because the Sporting Bodies will argue that the Quotas aren't quotas but are instead legally unenforceable targets.

Bit like Brexit, they can't void the referendum as it wasn't legally binding.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Perish the thought that anyone in SA should be exposed to racial discrimination and have their life chances impacted from birth by their race. How many Unis now have Afrikaans as their official teaching language?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-47001468

Actually a good news story if fundamental barriers to top level education are finally being broken down a mere quarter century after the fall of apartheid.

Get things like that addressed and then maybe people like myself will be more sympathetic towards legal efforts around rugby.
This is a completely different matter. You don't see the Universities introduce the other 9 official languages as new languages to replace Afrikaans??

No, all the Tertiary institutions are reverting to a single language for teaching, to accomodate all. But with that said, many still have Afrikaans as a second language of choice permitting they have enough students and lecturers to facilitate the subject(s).

What that article doesn't tell you is that the secondary and primary schools have Afrikaans and the other african languages as compulsory subjects, and there is an increasing requirement to have kids learn more than just english.

But Afrikaans as a language isn't such a racial barrier as it was perhaps during apartheid, and take the local High Schools here in my town who are 90% black, where most of the kids want Afrikaans as a subject, and some even prefer it over english.

While other areas such as the coloured regions, have Afrikaans as main language and english as a secondary language.

Players like Damian Willemse, Cheslin Kolbe, Gio Aplon, Roscoe Specman, Cornal Hendricks, where Afrikaans is their mother language.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

I think Solidarity might lose this because the Sporting Bodies will argue that the Quotas aren't quotas but are instead legally unenforceable targets.

Bit like Brexit, they can't void the referendum as it wasn't legally binding.
Here's a photo of the letter SASA sent to Solidarity and Afriforum:



As you can see they specifically mention the word "quota" in this letter, and whether they want to rather use the term transformation or whatever else, they are now stuck with this term.

The probability of succeeding might be slim, yes, but I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. Now that they are geared up to take the government on with legal proceedings, there is a possibility that they might just get some success.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

First XV
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
3,835
Reaction score
807
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Italy

This is a completely different matter. You don't see the Universities introduce the other 9 official languages as new languages to replace Afrikaans??

No, all the Tertiary institutions are reverting to a single language for teaching, to accomodate all. But with that said, many still have Afrikaans as a second language of choice permitting they have enough students and lecturers to facilitate the subject(s).

What that article doesn't tell you is that the secondary and primary schools have Afrikaans and the other african languages as compulsory subjects, and there is an increasing requirement to have kids learn more than just english.

But Afrikaans as a language isn't such a racial barrier as it was perhaps during apartheid, and take the local High Schools here in my town who are 90% black, where most of the kids want Afrikaans as a subject, and some even prefer it over english.

While other areas such as the coloured regions, have Afrikaans as main language and english as a secondary language.

Players like Damian Willemse, Cheslin Kolbe, Gio Aplon, Roscoe Specman, Cornal Hendricks, where Afrikaans is their mother language.
Of course it is a different issue. It's called context (and is a recent story) and thank you for tolerating the brief off topic and the response. Learning additional languages (including Afrikaans) is great for educational development as well as social cohesion.

However, Insisting on teaching at elite universities only in a language other than English is non-sensical in this day and age and many would question the motivation behind it (and if those motivations were linked to the slow change in rugby). But as I say, better late than never.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Of course it is a different issue. It's called context (and is a recent story) and thank you for tolerating the brief off topic and the response. Learning additional languages (including Afrikaans) is great for educational development as well as social cohesion.

However, Insisting on teaching at elite universities only in a language other than English is non-sensical in this day and age and many would question the motivation behind it (and if those motivations were linked to the slow change in rugby). But as I say, better late than never.
Here's some more context for you. Prior to Apartheid (yes, there was a time before Apartheid was in South Africa) some of these universities were Afrikaans only universities, and some were English only. University of Johannesburg (UJ) was always called Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit (RAU). And at some point they found that by building more student accomodation, they can get more students, but would have to make the compromise of adding additional languages and subjects for non-main language speaking students.

We have more than enough literature in every subject in Afrikaans to last a lifetime, more than adequate personnel to give guidance to the youth.

It's not that Afrikaans is dying out or anything like that. And to emphasise this, new legislation to this day, are still being published in English and Afrikaans.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
592
Reaction score
103
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

I wonder if the targets would still be enforced if the Boks were facing relegation under this new competition?
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

I wonder if the targets would still be enforced if the Boks were facing relegation under this new competition?
Well the hope is that by the time this new competition is in place, there won't be any need or use for the transformation quota to be used.

There has been a real drive this past week on social media, with the emphasis on prior to 1994, race classification was deemed wrong by the ANC government, but now it's not. They can't have it both ways.

There is also a petition going around to support the court case. Last time I checked it had about 100 000 signatures on it already.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
592
Reaction score
103
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

Well the hope is that by the time this new competition is in place, there won't be any need or use for the transformation quota to be used.

There has been a real drive this past week on social media, with the emphasis on prior to 1994, race classification was deemed wrong by the ANC government, but now it's not. They can't have it both ways.

There is also a petition going around to support the court case. Last time I checked it had about 100 000 signatures on it already.
I don't know South African Law, but in UK law (and also international sports law) racial quotas are 100% illegal. If the Sporting bodies are to successfully defend them they will argue that they are non binding targets.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

I don't know South African Law, but in UK law (and also international sports law) racial quotas are 100% illegal. If the Sporting bodies are to successfully defend them they will argue that they are non binding targets.
Well, I think this court case will certainly open up the issue surrounding the legality of the transformation charter, and whether it's being viewed in the same manner as Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) which is currently a legal precedent.

But should it be deemed illegal, then the government will have no choice to change their approach because then the International Sporting bodies will have no choice to intervene. That is why the organization that brought the matter to court went to the UN last year, and also visited some of the Sproting Bodies, headquarters.
 

Steve-o

Bench Player
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
931
Reaction score
220
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Of course it is a different issue. It's called context (and is a recent story) and thank you for tolerating the brief off topic and the response. Learning additional languages (including Afrikaans) is great for educational development as well as social cohesion.

However, Insisting on teaching at elite universities only in a language other than English is non-sensical in this day and age and many would question the motivation behind it (and if those motivations were linked to the slow change in rugby). But as I say, better late than never.
Afrikaans (initially Dutch) has been in South Africa for close to 400 years and has a deep history of literacy specific to South Africa, so that might be the motivation... English is a late comer to the party. Afrikaans is allowed to exist if we're going to call South Africa a multicultural society.

As Heineken points out English is not everybody's default favourite choice. Neither blacks or whites in South Africa are close to being homogeneous groups, especially when it comes to language.

A Sotho who wants to learn in English just needs to move a few hundred kilometres to study in Durban (very English part of South Africa) but typically won't because of the Zulus.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
592
Reaction score
103
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

Out of interest does anybody know which players in the Springbok squad speak English and which speak Afrikaans. It has always been my understanding that Durban and Cape Town tend to be English speaking and the rest of the country is Afrikaans speaking. (European based languages)
 

Steve-o

Bench Player
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
931
Reaction score
220
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Out of interest does anybody know which players in the Springbok squad speak English and which speak Afrikaans. It has always been my understanding that Durban and Cape Town tend to be English speaking and the rest of the country is Afrikaans speaking. (European based languages)
Going off the squad on Wikipedia, Warren Whitely is probably the only person who's mother tongue would be English. However it's common in South Africa for people to be completely bilingual. A guy like Malcolm Marx sounds completely bilingual but probably more Afrikaans.
Generally rule is whites and coloureds are Afrikaans, black African whatever ethnic group they're from: Xhosas, Zulu, Tsonga, etc however they would have a second language. General rule for them is if they grew up along the coast it would be English, if they grew up in the interior mostly Afrikaans and maybe English depending on the town/city. Honestly the language preference can change from suburb to suburb in a city. That said Afrikaans is more prevalent in the interior from my experience. Clear as mud!

As above, for cities it depends. Durban would have more English, Cape Town would be more Afrikaans but English would be a close second. Outside of Cape Town would be very Afrikaans. Pretoria is more Afrikaans than Jo'burg, which has its fair share of English. Bloemfontein is very Afrikaans. Honestly it's pretty complicated to explain. Fellow Saffas correct me if I'm wrong?
 

saulan

Bench Player
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
882
Reaction score
95
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Stormers

As above, for cities it depends. Durban would have more English, Cape Town would be more Afrikaans but English would be a close second. Outside of Cape Town would be very Afrikaans. Pretoria is more Afrikaans than Jo'burg, which has its fair share of English. Bloemfontein is very Afrikaans. Honestly it's pretty complicated to explain. Fellow Saffas correct me if I'm wrong?
Only adjustment I would make is that Cape Town is more English than Afrikaans, but definitely more Afrikaans outside of Cape Town once you head Stellenbosch/Paarl way. From the image below, you can see Cape Town, Joburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban as English. Note this is a first language distribution. Almost everyone will be able to speak English, but it won't be what they speak at home. Afrikaans looks very dominant in the Northern Cape (North West of that map), but it's a desert which has less population than Cape Town itself.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

First XV
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
3,835
Reaction score
807
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Italy

Afrikaans (initially Dutch) has been in South Africa for close to 400 years and has a deep history of literacy specific to South Africa, so that might be the motivation... English is a late comer to the party. Afrikaans is allowed to exist if we're going to call South Africa a multicultural society.

As Heineken points out English is not everybody's default favourite choice. Neither blacks or whites in South Africa are close to being homogeneous groups, especially when it comes to language.

A Sotho who wants to learn in English just needs to move a few hundred kilometres to study in Durban (very English part of South Africa) but typically won't because of the Zulus.
I made it clear I'm not questioning Afrikaans right to exist, I'm questioning why it take a quarter century after apartheid for language barriers to education to be removed for the third and fourth ranked Unis in South Africa.

Teaching only in Afrikaans in a national institution is as daft as if your employer decided to use only Xhosa - both would speak to a reluctance to get on board with reconciliation. I'm glad that enlightend persons have ensured that neither is the case. I suppose if someone wasn't happy working in a Xhosa only environment they could just move a couple of hundred of kilometres to Durban and get a lower paid job (or one that doesn't match their skills so well) there. Doesn't sound appealing, does it? :p

I'm not a massive fan of the spread of English, but its prevalence is here to stay and in a country with the linguistic diversity of South Africa it is the obvious choice for institutions and businesses aspiring to have a national reach; af least to have it as an option.
 

Steve-o

Bench Player
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
931
Reaction score
220
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

I made it clear I'm not questioning Afrikaans right to exist, I'm questioning why it take a quarter century after apartheid for language barriers to education to be removed for the third and fourth ranked Unis in South Africa.

Teaching only in Afrikaans in a national institution is as daft as if your employer decided to use only Xhosa - both would speak to a reluctance to get on board with reconciliation. I'm glad that enlightend persons have ensured that neither is the case.
There are no Afrikaans only universities anymore and haven't been for at least 10 years but probably closer to about 15 years. Making the article irrelevant.

I know exactly what this article stems from. It's routed in the radical "decolonisation" movement from a couple of years ago. Long story short, some black radical students want to erase everything that white people have created and start again from an African perspective. Maths, science, healthcare, etc, everything. Sound ridiculous?


It's tiresome to explain everything. This is a discussion forum not an education forum. I could understand if you asked questions but you don't, instead you rather just assert a position based on what you read and watched on the internet.

I suppose if someone wasn't happy working in a Xhosa only environment they could just move a couple of hundred of kilometres to Durban and get a lower paid job (or one that doesn't match their skills so well) there. Doesn't sound appealing, does it? :p
Again no idea what you are talking about. I know you used Xhosa as an analogy but it highlights you don't know the demographics or economics of the country. Xhosa are mostly in the Eastern Cape which is the most rural and poorest part of the country so that scenario would literally never happen.

Secondly why would moving to Durban, from presumably the interior, involve an automatic pay cut? For which sectors?
Most manufacturers are based in Durban and it has one of the busiest ports in Africa.

On a serious note, you're young and probably have some Pounds (which will go very far), move down to SA for 2 years. Pay taxes, live in the suburbs, go to unexplored areas and use the public services. It would take 2 years for me to explain what you'd experience in the same amount of time.
 
Last edited:

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,303
Reaction score
1,213
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

There are no Afrikaans only universities anymore and haven't been for at least 10 years but probably closer to about 15 years. Making the article irrelevant.

I know exactly what this article stems from. It's routed in the radical "decolonisation" movement from a couple of years ago. Long story short, some black radical students want to erase everything that white people have created and start again from an African perspective. Maths, science, healthcare, etc, everything. Sound ridiculous?


It's tiresome to explain everything. This is a discussion forum not an education forum. I could understand if you asked questions but you don't, instead you rather just assert a position based on what you read and watched on the internet.


Again no idea what you are talking about. I know you used Xhosa as an analogy but it highlights you don't know the demographics or economics of the country. Xhosa are mostly in the Eastern Cape which is the most rural and poorest part of the country so that scenario would literally never happen.

Secondly why would moving to Durban, from presumably the interior, involve an automatic pay cut? For which sectors?
Most manufacturers are based in Durban and it has one of the busiest ports in Africa.

On a serious note, you're young and probably have some Pounds (which will go very far), move down to SA for 2 years. Pay taxes, live in the suburbs, go to unexplored areas and use the public services. It would take 2 years for me to explain what you'd experience in the same amount of time.
This!

It baffles my mind how foreigners take a stance on something by reading a few articles and then get into a debate with locals about their own country. Clearly there has been no attempt to research the history thoroughly, or to delve deeper into the specific topics. It's as if they don't know the dutch were here first, then the english came later, then there was 2 wars... It's just straight to Apartheid and how bad it was.

Shame
 

Lourens

Bench Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
541
Reaction score
63
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Blue Bulls

I also agree with Steve.....have not been any Afrikaans only Universities in a long while.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
592
Reaction score
103
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

What is the Ligua Franca of South Africa? English or Afrikaans.

I only know of South Africa from my Uncle who lives in Muizenberg. He has been there 40 years and has citizenship. He say's living in South Africa is amazing and nothing like the doom and gloom we read in the papers. It is the only other place in the world I would want to live and I have sometimes thought of emigrating to South Africa. Probably not going to happen now as I have a son (separated from the mother) and I couldn't leave him behind in the UK. I doubt his mum would let me take him!!
 

Lourens

Bench Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
541
Reaction score
63
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Blue Bulls

English....die soutie taal....
 
Top