The Ulster Thread

[Amiga500]

Its an utter focking mess.

Thing is - I don't trust the Ulster Branch Professional Game Board (i.e. the suits) to get it right - either in terms of the first team coaches or the entire branch structures. Their track record is very poor.


The IRFU really need to send in some of their other experts (I'm actually thinking primarily of Stuart Lancaster rather than Schmidt & Farrell) as he has a track record of improving the England underage setup - to have a look at the entire province and make recommendations as to what should be done.

The pathway from minis through schools into clubs is very poor. We've only a few schools operating at a decent level - and they seem to worry more about schools cup than the long term future of those entrusted into their tutelage (burnout bedamned).

Clubs are turning out far fewer teams than even 10 years ago and obviously the academy has produced very little compared to elsewhere, underage provincial standards are poor and senior provincial standards are regressing at an alarming rate.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Its an utter focking mess.

Thing is - I don't trust the Ulster Branch Professional Game Board (i.e. the suits) to get it right - either in terms of the first team coaches or the entire branch structures. Their track record is very poor.


The IRFU really need to send in some of their other experts (I'm actually thinking primarily of Stuart Lancaster rather than Schmidt & Farrell) as he has a track record of improving the England underage setup - to have a look at the entire province and make recommendations as to what should be done.

The pathway from minis through schools into clubs is very poor. We've only a few schools operating at a decent level - and they seem to worry more about schools cup than the long term future of those entrusted into their tutelage (burnout bedamned).

Clubs are turning out far fewer teams than even 10 years ago and obviously the academy has produced very little compared to elsewhere, underage provincial standards are poor and senior provincial standards are regressing at an alarming rate.

I'd say you could be waiting til Lanc takes over from Schmidt for him to do anything up north. I've heard murmers that talent identification outside the schools is tragic up north, if you're letting good young club players slip through the cracks it'd partly explain why your pack is as tough as a wet paper bag!

 

[Amiga500]

I've heard murmers that talent identification outside the schools is tragic up north, if you're letting good young club players slip through the cracks it'd partly explain why your pack is as tough as a wet paper bag!

Course it is. If you don't go to one of the four "big" schools your largely forgotten about.

While concentrating on the schools system might make sense in Dublin, due to history up here that's not really a sensible option (your losing about half your potential catchment). I was brought up on a heavy diet of Gaelic football (no interest in playing with the yaps that would be team'mates' in ground football) - and rugby wasn't available in school or no clubs near.

The schools stop players turning out for their clubs. That should be outlawed. Immediately. Any school caught stopping underage players playing the game outside of school should be banned.

If there were a large number of clubs operating at a good level - with constant support from the professional game coaches (i.e. coaching the club coaches and even directly taking some sessions) - then you'd drive up the overall standard and allow potential players that aren't realistically going to school in Belfast to have a chance at developing to a level where they'd interest an academy.

 

[munstermuffin]

Course it is. If you don't go to one of the four "big" schools your largely forgotten about.

While concentrating on the schools system might make sense in Dublin, due to history up here that's not really a sensible option (your losing about half your potential catchment). I was brought up on a heavy diet of Gaelic football (no interest in playing with the yaps that would be team'mates' in ground football) - and rugby wasn't available in school or no clubs near.

The schools stop players turning out for their clubs. That should be outlawed. Immediately. Any school caught stopping underage players playing the game outside of school should be banned.

If there were a large number of clubs operating at a good level - with constant support from the professional game coaches (i.e. coaching the club coaches and even directly taking some sessions) - then you'd drive up the overall standard and allow potential players that aren't realistically going to school in Belfast to have a chance at developing to a level where they'd interest an academy.

In fairness Amiga Schools stop players plating for clubs in all provinces. It is an issue that has been around for a while

 

[Amiga500]

In fairness Amiga Schools stop players plating for clubs in all provinces. It is an issue that has been around for a while

It's probably a bigger issue up here in that 50% of the population are extremely unlikely to ever go to a rugby playing school... and its not a conscious decision to avoid rugby. The only exposure they'd get is the club game - and its pretty hard to get exposure if its eviscerated between the ages of 12-18.

 

[Groundhog]

To be fair there's a good few under 20s lads playing this year who primarily came through the club system. A few trailblazers have shown the value of this route. I've heard that there's a serious issue getting noticed outside of Belfast/ the big few private schools.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's probably a bigger issue up here in that 50% of the population are extremely unlikely to ever go to a rugby playing school... and its not a conscious decision to avoid rugby. The only exposure they'd get is the club game - and its pretty hard to get exposure if its eviscerated between the ages of 12-18.

Do they have school's and club provincial teams up there? Leinster run both up until u18 as far as I'm aware and while the school's are always stronger the clubs have unearthed SOB, Adam Byrne and Tadhg Furlong to name but a few. It'd be more but the school's scout and recruit from clubs, Blackrock recruited Carbery from Athy and there's plenty more examples. @snoopy snoopy dog dog or @big ginger 8 would be more knowledgeable than me.

It'd be incredibly stupid for Ulster not to implement a system that's almost a carbon copy of Leinster but tweaked to suit them when they presumably have access to all the information on how Europe's, if not the world's best academy is run. It'd be impossible for Ulster to get as many players like Carbery, Ringrose, Deegan or Ross Byrne (Leaving out Larmour and Porter as they're freaks like Stockdale) who are ready for Pro rugby almost straight out of school because they've been in a multi million euro system for two to three years in school which St. Michael's and Blackrock College's past pupils union run but there's obviously room for improvement considering the frequency of them accepting failed Leinster academy prospects like Jones, Timoney and O'Connor. Munster's academy is far far better and only seem to take in gems like those two SA boys or Conor Oliver who was in an impossible position in Leinster despite having at best the same playing population as Ulster.

 

[munstermuffin]

Do they have school's and club provincial teams up there? Leinster run both up until u18 as far as I'm aware and while the school's are always stronger the clubs have unearthed SOB, Adam Byrne and Tadhg Furlong to name but a few. It'd be more but the school's scout and recruit from clubs, Blackrock recruited Carbery from Athy and there's plenty more examples. @snoopy snoopy dog dog or @big ginger 8 would be more knowledgeable than me.

It'd be incredibly stupid for Ulster not to implement a system that's almost a carbon copy of Leinster but tweaked to suit them when they presumably have access to all the information on how Europe's, if not the world's best academy is run. It'd be impossible for Ulster to get as many players like Carbery, Ringrose, Deegan or Ross Byrne (Leaving out Larmour and Porter as they're freaks like Stockdale) who are ready for Pro rugby almost straight out of school because they've been in a multi million euro system for two to three years in school which St. Michael's and Blackrock College's past pupils union run but there's obviously room for improvement considering the frequency of them accepting failed Leinster academy prospects like Jones, Timoney and O'Connor. Munster's academy is far far better and only seem to take in gems like those two SA boys or Conor Oliver who was in an impossible position in Leinster despite having at best the same playing population as Ulster.

Not sure on how they operate but all Provinces have a schools and Club route up until 18s. Even international we have Irish Schools and Irish 18s.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

In no way am I an authority on Ulster underage rugby. I also hate boxing people off as one thing or another, especially relevant for those in Northern Ireland due to the political situation. Despite saying that, generalizing massively, rugby in Ulster would be primarily played by and supported by middle class protestants (GAA being a catholic past time). In that regard, Ulster have done an excellent job reaching out. Take a look at this u18 squad from a few months ago:

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/16474.php#.WmoVWHnLjIV

Ulster U18 Clubs v Leinster
Saturday 9th September, 1.00pm at City of Armagh RFC

(1-8): Niall Preston (Virginia RFC), Ciaran McGlone (Rainey RFC), Seif Eldin Abd El Gawad (Carrickfergus RFC), Stephen Kelly (Inishowen RFC), Conor McMenamim (Letterkenny RFC), Sam Murray (City of Armagh RFC), Charlie Clarke (Captain) (Rainey RFC), Phil Campbell (Ballymena RFC);
(9-15): Nathan Rogers (City of Armagh RFC), Matthew Hamilton (Malone RFC), Alan Thompson (Coleraine RFC), Ben Moxham (Larne RFC), Peter Cullen (Randalstown RFC), Ciaron Wilson (Carrickfergus RFC), Nathan Jeffers (Rainey RFC).

Replacements: Eoin Macdonald (Randalstown RFC), Adam Marley (Finn Valley RFC), Harry Mawhinney (Ballyclare RFC), Robbie Mathers (Banbridge RFC), Matthew Sands (Newry RFC), Ashley Tweed (Ballymoney RFC), Rory Maginty (Letterkenny RFC), Finlay Walker (Ballymena RFC)

Lots of people from the above list from non-traditional rugby areas of Ulster. Virginia, Inishowen, Letterkenny are all represented. In the u19 squad to play Canada there were people from Newry RFC. Joe Dunleavy from Letterkenny is in the Ireland u20 squad. If Ulster can tap onto players from traditional GAA areas, it opens up their options massively.

I'd have serious reservations about their recruitment of and retention of players. If the academy isn't producing enough talent, they have to get these elements right. How many of the thirteen recruits I count in their senior squad pack have made a big impact and could cut it at international level if required? Compare that with Munster's excellent recruitment to boost a shallow squad. Prop is a disaster zone. How were Conor Carey and Finlay Bealham not retained? Either would now be Ulster's first choice 3. Is there an issue with talent identification?

This needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency. It doesn't matter who the coach is if the players aren't good enough. You can't polish a turd.

 

[Amiga500]

Kiss has walked.

 

[Groundhog]

Kiss has walked.

I think it's more akin to walking the plank.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Talk that Jono Gibbes doesn't want the director of rugby role and a new DoR will be brought in during the summer. Also talk that Jared Payne is the new defence coach.

Have seen elsewhere that Callum Black is off the Worcester.

 

[Groundhog]

Talk that Jono Gibbes doesn't want the director of rugby role and a new DoR will be brought in during the summer. Also talk that Jared Payne is the new defence coach.

Have seen elsewhere that Callum Black is off the Worcester.

Smart man is that Gibbes. Shake up from someone outside the toxic organisation needed anyway. Good for Payne anyway. Deserved a longer career, but I think it became clear a while back that he would not be able to play rugby again.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

"It's about looking at how we can get more school players of a high enough quality through into the academy and develop the academy to make them even better. But we have to realise our player pull isn't as great as Leinster and we will have to dip in occasionally into the Leinster academy or further afield through Irish qualified players."

Picked this out of Bryn Cunningham's statement in the 42 article... Doesn't read nicely for young club players.

 

[Amiga500]

Picked this out of Bryn Cunningham's statement in the 42 article... Doesn't read nicely for young club players.

Exactly. The dumb fkks can't look beyond the schools.

Look at that U-18 clubs team that Snoop has posted earlier.

What chance of a fella from Donegal or Cavan attending a f**king school in f**king Belfast?


Really f**ked off at yet more of the same old shte from folks whose "world wide searches" seemingly stopped at Lisburn.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Two more years in purgatory for Stockdale.

 

[munstermuffin]

Jono Gibbes confirms he's done at end of season. Likely to join Aus set up

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

That's disastrous for Ulster. You would have hoped they could build a coaching team around Gibbes. Now they've no director of rugby, no head coach, their pack is a mess, their star full back is leaving, a couple of really talented backs on on trial for rape and their other NIQ players are either injured or not delivering.

I see a lot of calls for Shane Logan to go. I'm not sure he's the problem. Revenues are excellent, it's the rugby side of things that are terrible. I'd say questions should be laid at Bryn Cunningham and the recruitment of the organization. Spend big to get in Marty Moore yet allow Finlay Bealham and Conor Carey move to Connacht. Chris Farrell and Sam Arnold slipped through their fingers too. Go into the season with no recognized second flyhalf. Holding onto players who are over the hill and not producing. They need somebody to go in and ruthlessly overhaul the squad. I wonder what Jordi Murphy is thinking about his move north now that Jamie Heaslip has retired?

What big name coach is going to take over given the myriad of problems? It's reminiscent of Leinster when Declan Kidney and Matt O'Connor left car crashes behind them. I'd say it'll be a young, ambitious coach who'll step up. Only name I can think of at the moment of Girvan Dempsey. He's highly rated by the IRFU, did a brilliant job with the Leinster academy, has learned from the likes of Joe Schmidt and Stuart Lancaster and has worked with a lot of Ulster's players already.

 

[munstermuffin]

I honestly think Eddie O'Sullivan is a real possibility.
He is well liked up there and up to date due to working with BBC. He would be the micro manager they need for next 2 years then possibly progress after that.
Can't see Dempsey leave Leinster for there. And I think it will be very hard to attract anyone up. Jim Mallinder may fancy it

 

[big ginger 8]

There were rumours a while ago that Gibbes was the big draw for Nordi Murphy. Can't imagine he'll be too happy.