Agree that the whole season is flawed, could be so much better.
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The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?
- Thread starter j'nuh
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Agree that the whole season is flawed, could be so much better.
You Irish boys seem to be very opinionated regarding the Welsh region.....
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I think a lot of it comes from the fact that in terms of playing pool, resources and player quality Wales and Ireland are pretty similar. I get the feeling that there's a lot of resentment in Ireland towards the Welsh regions.
The feeling is that they've never fully committed to the Rabo and have always looked to get into bed with the English at any possible opportunity. This has hurt the league greatly, because two of the Ospreys, Cardiff and Llanelli should always be competitive around the top of the table given the resources at their disposal. Their attitude towards has driven fans away and then they have the gall to turn around and say it's the league that's failing them and not the other way around. Meanwhile we put out good teams and have always been competitive in the Rabo yet get our reputations sullied on the European stage because the competition has been devalued.
ummm not sure anyone from Ireland can say about teams not commiting to the Rabo when the 3 main Irish regions have always focused mainly on the HC. Also when you say resources the current welsh salary cap is below the salary bill of Leinster, Ulster and Munster and that doesnt include the tax breaks Irish players get. The situation in Wales IMO is greatly different to the one in Ireland and its wrong to view the 2 equally.
For a competition Irish provinces don't rate they sure do seem to win it a lot. And for Welsh regions who do concentrate on it they seem to forget maybe to qualify for playoffs.
Fact is Irish have always been committed and competitive. Welsh simply weren't happy and are looking for any excuse. But thing if love to know when they are relegated will they stick at it if 1 region goes down to Championship and funding isn't as good and there's no union to save them.
Because really Cardiff, Dragon and Scarlett's could all go down possibly in next few years if Exodus continues. And if it's like George North scenario and regions are fined for releasing Welsh guys for internationals outside the AIs window will the tab be affordable
Didnt the Ospreys recently win the Pro 12?
As looking for excuses think that just ignores what the regions have been through in the last 5 years and the real reason why you guys are so sore towards the Welsh is because if they do join the EPL it will mean you have to stand on your own and form a full pro league.
As looking for excuses think that just ignores what the regions have been through in the last 5 years and the real reason why you guys are so sore towards the Welsh is because if they do join the EPL it will mean you have to stand on your own and form a full pro league.
Yes but other than them why haven't any of the other regions got there. And I've no doubt if Welsh go we could find replacements as rumours are Currie cup teams are interested in joining and talks were done. But more sore is regions going around thinking they dictate when fact is - They've done f all in HEC, in Rabo and will do same in EPL. If they want to go why don't they just jump and go for it if it's all as good as they say.
Think thats what they plan to do....
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Perhaps, but never at the cost of forfeiting competitiveness in the league. Toulouse could be accused of doing the same thing sure. Looking at the current table and having a look back at historical tables the pattern of the top four reveals that the Irish sides do indeed put a lot of emphasis on the league:
- Current Top Four: Munster, Leinster, Ospreys, Ulster
- 2012/13: Ulster, Leinster, Glasgow, Scarlets
- 2011/12: Leinster, Ospreys, Munster, Glasgow
- 2010/11: Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys
- 2009/10: Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Munster
- 2008/09: Munster, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ospreys
- 2007/08: Leinster, Cardiff, Munster, Edinburgh
- 2006/07: Ospreys, Cardiff, Leinster, Llanelli
- 2005/06: Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Cardiff
- 2004/05: Ospreys, Munster, Leinster, Dragons
- 2003/04: Llanelli, Ulster, Dragons, Celtic Warriors
Within the last ten seasons only twice have Welsh teams outnumbered Irish teams, and that hasn't happened for 6 or 7 seasons now. Irish teams have finished top of the league for the past 6 seasons in a row and are on course to repeat the feat this year. Hardly a sign of being disinterested.
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I'd say this doesn't work the way you believe it does. I'm also pretty sure the rate has been cut or is about to being cut but anyway it doesn't matter where you retire simply as long as you become an Irish tax resident again so for a lot of players it makes **** all difference.
Also the provinces salary bill is mostly in the hands of the I.R.F.U. who are not doing too well monetarily and there have been a number of cuts.
That tax break is changed now hence players now considering moving abroad. Before you had to end career in Ireland and have 7 of your last 8 seasons to get a huge lump sum back but now you get a significantly smaller return regardless on Irish earnings regardless.
psychic duck
International
That's just being disingenuous. Heineken Cup Irish sides have much more emphasis put on them than the Rabo versions.
First match of last season, not in an international period. Ulster visited the Ospreys with this ... J Payne; C Gilroy, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; N O'Connor, M Heaney; C Black, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick, J Muller (capt), L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, N Williams. Leaving Court, Afoa, Ferris, Jackson and Trimble on the bench is hardly a sign of a team desperate to win in the first game of the season. There are also those glorified 2nd XV's for 7 rounds of the season during internationals.
Having said that the Irish were at some points worse, especially in the pre-playoff days. In 2004 Munster sent this terrible side to Cardiff (http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/match_centre_munster_first_xv.php?section=lineups&fixid=362) as it was near a Heineken Cup knockout game.
As for your other points, there is going to be a block on relegation for the Welsh teams to allow them to regroup after a period of the Union trying to run them down. As for the 4th AI, most I have spoken too are not fans of it and it would be no loss to lose it.
I'm torn on the 4th AI. As a spectacle, it's a bit rubbish. I think we've overkilled the fixtures against SANZAR. As a game people would like to see, would Wales-Australia really be at the top of people's lists at this point? s
On the other hand, the regions are currently reliant on the WRU. If the WRU's ultimate goal is truly to pay off their debts, then you'd hope that the faster they did that, the faster they'd get around to properly financing the regions. Of course, this point wouldn't matter if the regions were to join the Premiership...
I think there's a compromise though. I wouldn't mind the 4th international if we saw more variety in the fixtures. I'd love it if every year, the autumn internationals switched between inter- and intra- hemisphere fixtures. One year Wales faces SANZAR/Arg/Samoa etc., the next it's the 6N enemies/Georgia/Russia etc.. As a nice side effect of this, you'd hope that the Pacific Islands would then get more fixtures with SANZAR.
It's a sign of a number of players who were either injured or on Ireland duty over the summer, therefore starting pre-season late, which meant they weren't at the desired level of fitness at the start of the season, which meant they were judged fit for bench duty only. That's all.
psychic duck
International
The SANZAR fixtures have become less of an occasion through regularity. In my opinion, the best option is to have 3 AI fixtures a year. 1 against a Tier 2 side (Fiji, Canada etc) where you can perhaps have some freedom to try some new combinations, 1 against a middling side around the same ranking (Samoa, Argentina or Australia), and then 1 big main event against an elite side in New Zealand or South Africa. Also as a rule, don't play a side in June and November. Then with that, I think it gives the schedule more variety and also respects the clubs and the IRB window.
Remember also the 4th AI costs a lot as well. There aren't fees during the window to prevent bidding wars with England and France only ever playing the big 3, but the out of window test to play Australia cost £750,000. Is that really worth it to see what is becoming an ever increasingly weakened side for that match almost certainly lose every year? That cost to play a team for a 4th AI isn't that far off what all the regions get of £1.2m for player release compensation.
Maverick1987
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Hahahaha ......... Oh you were being serious
Dont mind England playing a 4th AI if the money is used to fund a Saxons summer tour of Georgia, the Pacific Islands or even Madagascar. That would show real commitment to delevloping the game and would be more happy Tigers releasing players outside an International window to support that but thats not what happens.
Maverick1987
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Ok just to kill off this conversation
For Leinster in the last 2 full seasons of rabo 12 so 2011/12 and 12/13
SOB played 12 games
BOD played 13
Rob Kearney played 13
This isn't how many games players usually play especially star players
In the same period in the aviva premiership
Dan Cole played 35 times for Leicester
Manu Tuilagi played 38 times
So in effect tuilagi played as many as SOB, BOD and Rob Kearney on his own
Now stand there and tell us Leinster take the rabo seriously .....
For Leinster in the last 2 full seasons of rabo 12 so 2011/12 and 12/13
SOB played 12 games
BOD played 13
Rob Kearney played 13
This isn't how many games players usually play especially star players
In the same period in the aviva premiership
Dan Cole played 35 times for Leicester
Manu Tuilagi played 38 times
So in effect tuilagi played as many as SOB, BOD and Rob Kearney on his own
Now stand there and tell us Leinster take the rabo seriously .....
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Maverick1987
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I think as a general thing don't England play all 3 SANZAR teams most years ?
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In the interest of balance.
Leicester v Worcester, 1st game of the season: Morris; Goneva, Allen, Bowden, Thompstone; Lamb, Mele; Mulipola, T Youngs, Cole, Deacon (capt), Parling, Croft, Salvi, Crane.
Replacements: Slater for Deacon (61), Waldrom for Crane (64), Williams for Lamb (76), Briggs for T Youngs (76).
Not Used: Stankovich, Balmain, Steele, Dunn.
Leicester v Treviso, this weekend: Tait; Morris, Goneva, Flood, Benjamin; Williams, B Youngs, Ayerza, Briggs, Cole, Deacon, De Chaves, Gibson, Salvi, Waldrom.
Replacements: Smith for Goneva (72), Allen for Williams (50), Mele for B Youngs (50), Stankovich for Ayerza (70), Hawkins for Briggs (60), Balmain for Cole (70), Mafi for De Chaves (62), Crane for Waldrom (49).
It seems Leicester do a fair amount of rotation. Why is it that when Leicester rotate their team, nothing is said about it yet when an Irish province does the same they're accused of not caring about their competition? I trust you're equally harsh on Leicester for clearly not caring about the Premiership or Heineken Cup (delete as appropriate) based on their wildly different selections.
Last season Ulster played 31 games. Do you think they could have played a full strength team every week or was it wise to rotate their squad?
I see a wonderful crowd of 8,347 (roughly 40% of the capacity) turned up to see the Ospreys play Northampton today. It's the WRUs fault that next to nobody turned up. It was a dead rubber anyway. I'm sure those empty seats will be filled if there's an Anglo-Welsh League.............
