The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Now stand there and tell us Leinster take the rabo seriously .....

Clearly they don't take the competition seriously.

 

[McTallshort]

Sure Bowden, Croft, Parling, Thompstone, Bowden are all injured.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

....and others were rotated. Just like the Irish provinces are doing.

I make it that five of the Leicester team who started on the opening day started yesterday with just three of those five starting in the same position. Nobody in Ireland quibbles with that because it's a long season and you need to overcome injuries, loss of form and rotate your squad. Why is it used as a stick to bash Irish teams?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ok just to kill off this conversation

For Leinster in the last 2 full seasons of rabo 12 so 2011/12 and 12/13

SOB played 12 games

BOD played 13

Rob Kearney played 13

This isn't how many games players usually play especially star players

In the same period in the aviva premiership

Dan Cole played 35 times for Leicester

Manu Tuilagi played 38 times

So in effect tuilagi played as many as SOB, BOD and Rob Kearney on his own

Now stand there and tell us Leinster take the rabo seriously .....

Just because we have the depth to compete on more than one front doesn't mean we don't place a high emphasis on the competition. Take the case of Niall Morris as an example. High quality winger excelling at one of England's finest clubs, yet still couldn't get a look in at Leinster despite guys like Rob Kearney not playing every week. Why start Rob Kearney every week when you can rotate him with the equally effective Isa Nacewa?

French sides are well known for sending weaker sides to away games in the Top 14. Does that mean they don't take the league seriously?

 

[McTallshort]

They are more likely to send weaker teams out in HC games to be fair.

This thread about Welsh regions is increasingly becoming Irish......

 

[Maverick1987]

In the interest of balance.

Leicester v Worcester, 1st game of the season: Morris; Goneva, Allen, Bowden, Thompstone; Lamb, Mele; Mulipola, T Youngs, Cole, Deacon (capt), Parling, Croft, Salvi, Crane.

Replacements: Slater for Deacon (61), Waldrom for Crane (64), Williams for Lamb (76), Briggs for T Youngs (76).
Not Used: Stankovich, Balmain, Steele, Dunn.


Leicester v Treviso, this weekend: Tait; Morris, Goneva, Flood, Benjamin; Williams, B Youngs, Ayerza, Briggs, Cole, Deacon, De Chaves, Gibson, Salvi, Waldrom.

Replacements: Smith for Goneva (72), Allen for Williams (50), Mele for B Youngs (50), Stankovich for Ayerza (70), Hawkins for Briggs (60), Balmain for Cole (70), Mafi for De Chaves (62), Crane for Waldrom (49).

It seems Leicester do a fair amount of rotation. Why is it that when Leicester rotate their team, nothing is said about it yet when an Irish province does the same they're accused of not caring about their competition? I trust you're equally harsh on Leicester for clearly not caring about the Premiership or Heineken Cup (delete as appropriate) based on their wildly different selections.

Last season Ulster played 31 games. Do you think they could have played a full strength team every week or was it wise to rotate their squad?

I see a wonderful crowd of 8,347 (roughly 40% of the capacity) turned up to see the Ospreys play Northampton today. It's the WRUs fault that next to nobody turned up. It was a dead rubber anyway. I'm sure those empty seats will be filled if there's an Anglo-Welsh League.............

Ok so very quickly Leicester front row Worcester game start of season ayerza was playing for Argentina in the rugby championship , tait was injured , tuilagi and youngs rested due to injury on the lions tour , flood injured .
Other than that not far away from our first team

Team vs Treviso in comparison tait back , tuilagi still injured , tom youngs, parling, croft, Kitchener all injured too

As far as I can see Waldrom and crane share no 8 duties

As you can see most of the changes are forced rather than tactical/can't be arsed (delete as appropriate)

I'd say Leicesters first team is

Ayerza
Youngs
Cole
Mafi (injured most the season so far)
Parling
Croft
Salvi
Crane/Waldrom
Youngs
Flood
Benjamin
Allen
Tuilagi
Goneva
Tait

We are currently short around 15 players through injury

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ok so very quickly Leicester front row Worcester game start of season ayerza was playing for Argentina in the rugby championship , tait was injured , tuilagi and youngs rested due to injury on the lions tour , flood injured .
Other than that not far away from our first team

Team vs Treviso in comparison tait back , tuilagi still injured , tom youngs, parling, croft, Kitchener all injured too

As far as I can see Waldrom and crane share no 8 duties

As you can see most of the changes are forced rather than tactical/can't be arsed (delete as appropriate)

I'd say Leicesters first team is

Ayerza
Youngs
Cole
Mafi (injured most the season so far)
Parling
Croft
Salvi
Crane/Waldrom
Youngs
Flood
Benjamin
Allen
Tuilagi
Goneva
Tait

We are currently short around 15 players through injury

But we have all the same arguments to make sure. Longer rest periods imposed by the union, guys like Jack McGrath or Dave Kearney who we'd lose if we didn't give game time to as they have international aspirations, guys like Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan who are neck in neck for their positions.

Rotation isn't a sign of not taking a competition seriously. Not putting out a team that's capable of winning when that capacity is within your squad is however, but as the tables can attest that isn't something the provinces can be accused of.

 

[j'nuh]

....and others were rotated. Just like the Irish provinces are doing.

I make it that five of the Leicester team who started on the opening day started yesterday with just three of those five starting in the same position. Nobody in Ireland quibbles with that because it's a long season and you need to overcome injuries, loss of form and rotate your squad. Why is it used as a stick to bash Irish teams?

You're underestimating the injury crisis that Tigers have had.

15. Tait was injured for the first game of the season. Would have started otherwise, since Morris is more a winger.
14. Goneva was in both teams.
13. Allen was in both teams. He didn't start this weekend because it's his first game back from injury. Tigers didn't play Flood at 12 out of choice this weekend.
12. Bowden is currently injured.
11. Benjamin was injured at the start of the season so Thompstone played instead.
10. Flood was injured so couldn't play against Wuss. (Injured in pre-season.)
9. Youngs failed a fitness test just before the Wuss game, having had a shoulder injury beforehand.
1. Ayerza wasn't available for the Tigers vs. Wuss because of international duty.
2. Tom Youngs injured this weekend.
3. Cole in both teams.
4. Deacon in both teams.
5. Parling injured this weekend. They wouldn't play De Chaves out of choice.
6. Croft injured this weekend.
7. Salvi in both teams.
8 + 20. Crane/Waldrom has been a 50/50 call at Tigers for a long time. Both played in each game, but they swapped around on the bench. Pretty standard for Tigers.
17. Stankovich in both teams
18. Balmain in both teams.
16. Briggs in both teams.
19. Mafi was injured against Wuss. Slater/Mafi is probably a 50/50 call anyway.
21. Mele in both teams.
22. Williams in both teams.
23. Smith was injured against Wuss.

That's changes in the whole 23 accounted for. Just one position involved rotation (8), and that was a 50/50 form-based call anyway.

 

[psychic duck]

....and others were rotated. Just like the Irish provinces are doing.

I make it that five of the Leicester team who started on the opening day started yesterday with just three of those five starting in the same position. Nobody in Ireland quibbles with that because it's a long season and you need to overcome injuries, loss of form and rotate your squad. Why is it used as a stick to bash Irish teams?

If you compare the amount of domestic league games the Irish team play compared to the French or the English it would be less and I suspect you know this as well. Take the starting XV's from the last 6 Nations round last year, the Irish XV started on average 8 games of the season between them, the English XV 13 games and the French XV 14 games.

 

[Maverick1987]

Leicester played 31 games last season in AP and HC tuilagi played 24 of them

Leinster played 30 games SOB played 9

There's the difference for you

 

[Maverick1987]

You're underestimating the injury crisis that Tigers have had.

15. Tait was injured for the first game of the season. Would have started otherwise, since Morris is more a winger.
14. Goneva was in both teams.
13. Allen was in both teams. He didn't start this weekend because it's his first game back from injury. Tigers didn't play Flood at 12 out of choice this weekend.
12. Bowden is currently injured.
11. Benjamin was injured at the start of the season so Thompstone played instead.
10. Flood was injured so couldn't play against Wuss. (Injured in pre-season.)
9. Youngs failed a fitness test just before the Wuss game, having had a shoulder injury beforehand.
1. Ayerza wasn't available for the Tigers vs. Wuss because of international duty.
2. Tom Youngs injured this weekend.
3. Cole in both teams.
4. Deacon in both teams.
5. Parling injured this weekend. They wouldn't play De Chaves out of choice.
6. Croft injured this weekend.
7. Salvi in both teams.
8 + 20. Crane/Waldrom has been a 50/50 call at Tigers for a long time. Both played in each game, but they swapped around on the bench. Pretty standard for Tigers.
17. Stankovich in both teams
18. Balmain in both teams.
16. Briggs in both teams.
19. Mafi was injured against Wuss. Slater/Mafi is probably a 50/50 call anyway.
21. Mele in both teams.
22. Williams in both teams.
23. Smith was injured against Wuss.

That's changes in the whole 23 accounted for. Just one position involved rotation (8), and that was a 50/50 form-based call anyway.

Thank you so much . I was starting to regret getting in to this lol

 

[Feicarsinn]

Leicester played 31 games last season in AP and HC tuilagi played 24 of them

Leinster played 30 games SOB played 9

There's the difference for you

Selective examples.

Of course, the most compelling argument I can make is that we won the league last year.

 

[McTallshort]

So did we.

 

[Maverick1987]

Selective examples.

Of course, the most compelling argument I can make is that we won the league last year.

I just gave 3 examples above of leinsters 3 best players IMO against 2 of Leicesters stars and I only stopped at 2 because I got fed up and realised this argument has been going on for 5 years and Leinster fans still don't/don't want to get it ......

 

[jcahill1]

Leicester played 31 games last season in AP and HC tuilagi played 24 of them

Leinster played 30 games SOB played 9

There's the difference for you

You're picking and choosing your examples. Sean O'Brien is one of Leinsters most injury prone players. Heals up would have played much more than him for example

 

[Maverick1987]

You're picking and choosing your examples. Sean O'Brien is one of Leinsters most injury prone players. Heals up would have played much more than him for example

Healy played 16 last year 4 of them off the bench

Heaslip 14 last year together with BODs 12 SOBs 9 and Kearneys 12

Now we are getting towards half your first team . How many more examples do you want ?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If you compare the amount of domestic league games the Irish team play compared to the French or the English it would be less and I suspect you know this as well. Take the starting XV's from the last 6 Nations round last year, the Irish XV started on average 8 games of the season between them, the English XV 13 games and the French XV 14 games.

French international Remi Tales only started 12 times in the Top 14 last season for the champions Castres at flyhalf. I'm guessing you think Castres were showing contempt towards their domestic league too.

Healy played 16 last year 4 of them off the bench

Heaslip 14 last year together with BODs 12 SOBs 9 and Kearneys 12

Now we are getting towards half your first team . How many more examples do you want ?

As many as you want but you'll be wasting your time. I'm not denying that Leinster rotate their team! They have/had two international players in most positions. Healy rotated with the capped Springbok Heinke van der Merwe and the newly capped Jack McGrath. In the backrow they have the capped Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Kevin McLaughlin, Shane Jennings, Rhys Ruddock and the Wolfhounds/development capped Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy. Jonny Sexton was rotating with Ian Madigan, both are internationals. The scrumhalves Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan split starts. Isa Nacewa played a lot instead of Rob Kearney at fullback. Everyone gets game time and it keeps people fresh at the end of the season. Given that Leinster have appeared in both a European and Pro12 final in each of the last three years, I'm guessing you could say it worked.

If people use that as evidence against not caring about a competition they've won 3 times and been runner up in 4 times, there's no other word for it; they're wrong.

 

[Maverick1987]

French international Remi Tales only started 12 times in the Top 14 last season for the champions Castres at flyhalf. I'm guessing you think Castres were showing contempt towards their domestic league too.


As many as you want but you'll be wasting your time. I'm not denying that Leinster rotate their team! They have/had two international players in most positions. Healy rotated with the capped Springbok Heinke van der Merwe and the newly capped Jack McGrath. In the backrow they have the capped Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Kevin McLaughlin, Shane Jennings, Rhys Ruddock and the Wolfhounds/development capped Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy. Jonny Sexton was rotating with Ian Madigan, both are internationals. The scrumhalves Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan split starts. Isa Nacewa played a lot instead of Rob Kearney at fullback. Everyone gets game time and it keeps people fresh at the end of the season. Given that Leinster have appeared in both a European and Pro12 final in each of the last three years, I'm guessing you could say it worked.

If people use that as evidence against not caring about a competition they've won 3 times and been runner up in 4 times, there's no other word for it; they're wrong.

I'm giving up on this conversation

I'm not one that says Leinster won the HC because they can rest players all I'm saying is they rest a lot of players for the rabo just like the welsh . If you can't see that then you either only watch the HC or your in denial .

End of story

 

[McTallshort]

French international Remi Tales only started 12 times in the Top 14 last season for the champions Castres at flyhalf. I'm guessing you think Castres were showing contempt towards their domestic league too.


As many as you want but you'll be wasting your time. I'm not denying that Leinster rotate their team! They have/had two international players in most positions. Healy rotated with the capped Springbok Heinke van der Merwe and the newly capped Jack McGrath. In the backrow they have the capped Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Kevin McLaughlin, Shane Jennings, Rhys Ruddock and the Wolfhounds/development capped Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy. Jonny Sexton was rotating with Ian Madigan, both are internationals. The scrumhalves Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan split starts. Isa Nacewa played a lot instead of Rob Kearney at fullback. Everyone gets game time and it keeps people fresh at the end of the season. Given that Leinster have appeared in both a European and Pro12 final in each of the last three years, I'm guessing you could say it worked.

If people use that as evidence against not caring about a competition they've won 3 times and been runner up in 4 times, there's no other word for it; they're wrong.

Its because you bribe the ref! Bloody cheaters

 

[munstermuffin]

That's just being disingenuous. Heineken Cup Irish sides have much more emphasis put on them than the Rabo versions.

First match of last season, not in an international period. Ulster visited the Ospreys with this ... J Payne; C Gilroy, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; N O'Connor, M Heaney; C Black, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick, J Muller (capt), L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, N Williams. Leaving Court, Afoa, Ferris, Jackson and Trimble on the bench is hardly a sign of a team desperate to win in the first game of the season. There are also those glorified 2nd XV's for 7 rounds of the season during internationals.

Having said that the Irish were at some points worse, especially in the pre-playoff days. In 2004 Munster sent this terrible side to Cardiff (http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/match_centre_munster_first_xv.php?section=lineups&fixid=362) as it was near a Heineken Cup knockout game.

As for your other points, there is going to be a block on relegation for the Welsh teams to allow them to regroup after a period of the Union trying to run them down. As for the 4th AI, most I have spoken too are not fans of it and it would be no loss to lose it.

Fair enough but Duck league has progressed a lot since then.

Regardless of anyone's views on 4th AI. Here's my point. WRU will run that fixture. On that weekend the regions will have games. I'm sure all Welsh internationals will have some clause to be released. So will Welsh regions just take hammerings against full strength teams? And if Welsh teams do release guys will they pay fines like Northampton did with North?

Also if WRU set up new regions - Will regions in time still attract enough quality with "new regions" in hunt for same pool of guys and that pool isn't exactly huge. And would new region have advantage in that they're on better terms with WRU and players would see that as a pro as it might help their international hopes? And if the WRU refuse to pick some guys in breakaway teams then will they consider moving and leave the regions in limbo.

Regardless after all legal issues are done this wont surface for years I guess