Transfers Rumours

[Big Ewis]

You guys have no idea how much willpower it is taking to not go on a massive tirade about how wrong you are about Sexton.

Be the bigger man now Crazy Eyes 

arrrr fk, muffin beat me to it !!!

But no, what I'm saying here stands. It is based on observation, not on bias or old memory or anything but fact...I've really watched all those Racing games, and whatever the reason may be, he isn't as good as I thought before. When we had the TRF threads, picking the best by position, I'd voted for Sexton because I figured: big, strong, good tactical kicking, penalty kicking, attacks the line, sets up teammates, smart overall...but right now I'm reluctant. I definitely don't think he's the best in the world anymore, but he's still got to be Top 5.
I know it's easy because very few can question this (as very few watch Oyonnax) but you give me a Sexton or an Urdapilleta, I'm good with both. Not saying Urd is as good as Sexton, but as far as having a starting 10 lead my team, I'm not losing *that* much by picking Urd. There is a difference though atm in the Top 14 betw. those two and FTD or Giteau.

 

[gaston le gaff]

With what players are worth I agree that it all comes down too the big games. The whole knock out stages of the HCup he doesn't miss a kick and the money he won Toulon and the publicity he was probably worth it. He brought alot of attention too Toulon and that was needed at the time too get Toulon on the big stage.
That's what will interest me with the FTD, Urdapilleta, Giteau, Wisniewski if they can do it when it matters. I remember watching FTD against Racing when they were down too 14 men and he was just incredible, world class in everything he did, but will he hold his nerve when it gets too the big stage ? It's easy too look great when you are at the start of the season and not alot rides on these games but when you have to get that kick to win, when your season rides on this one kick off the tee, you know why Boudjellal pays the 56,000

If the last kick of the game for FTD against Clermont was not big what is in your opinion? In the last 5 years there are 2 teams that have won at Clermont, Castres and Montpellier, a kick from nearly 50 mts on the 80 min no pressure never ever having won there and that is not the big stage, maybe Wilco would have kicked the same but these guys are virtually on there own. Wisnieski missed the same kick against us to win the game, thats pressure and he missed.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I didn't see that game so I had no idea it happened. If so well done him, I did watch the Racing v Mont game where he missed some easy kicks and it lost you the game, that's the difference between Wilko and the rest, how many games did he cost Toulon ? Genuine question for people too think about.
Also Clermont is a big game but 3rd game of the season away from home with no expectations to win, also no Cotter so they dont look as good. It's a big game but no where near Top 14 finals and Hcup finals.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I didn't see that game so I had no idea it happened. If so well done him, I did watch the Racing v Mont game where he missed some easy kicks and it lost you the game, that's the difference between Wilko and the rest, how many games did he cost Toulon ? Genuine question for people too think about.
Also Clermont is a big game but 3rd game of the season away from home with no expectations to win, also no Cotter so they dont look as good. It's a big game but no where near Top 14 finals and Hcup finals.

I'm sorry but your talking out of your behind , these guys are Pro sports players and you actually think they do not go out to win games away from home, Top 14 finals are reached by winning away games at Clermont and of course others from what your saying its only the 3 rd game its not important, they are all important lose the 1st 6 games see whare you are in the Championship at the end of the season. You never asked yourself why so many teams in the TOP 14 who finish near the bottom of the Championship at the end of the season do so well at the beginning, because they try and amass pts at the start as many have smaller squads and with fatigue and injury after Christmas it comes even harder to get the wins.eg Grenoble last 3 seasons. Brive beat Toulouse on Sat they would not do that after Christmas well certainly less likely to do it, i rember a game at Montpellier where Sir Jonny missed 4 kicks and we won nobody is perfect every body has an off day even Sir Jonnie less than most but it does happen. The game against Racing we played the whole 2nd half with 14 which was more so why we lost but still scored a try against the odds and nearly won the game. As far as Vern goes he left last season and Clermont are still a very good team without him, and they will be not far of again this season. There is only one TOP 14 FINAL and only one H Cup final in between there are 26 TOP 14 games, 1/4's and semis, 6 pool games in the ex H Cup and also 1/4's and semis so i think there is a certain amount of winning all games, and not as yopu put it the big ones all 2 of them!!!!!! as if not you will quickly be on holiday come the end of the season.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm sorry but your talking from you behind , these guys are Pro sports players and you actually think they do not go out to win games away from home, Top 14 finals are reached by winning away games at Clermont and of course others from what your saying its only the 3 rd game its not imprtant, they are all important lose the 1st 6 games see whare you are in the Championship at the end of the season. You never asked yourself why so many teams in the TOP 14 WHO FINISH NEAR THE BOTTOM AT THE END OF THE SEASON DO SO WELL A

no what he's saying is it's not as important as a home game.

Home wins put you in the play offs, away wins adjust where you play the QF and if you get a weeks rest, you don't need to win the log to win the championship as we've seen in the last few years.

therefore there is less pressure on the away kicker as they are not expected to win, and if he misses it's "ok, they had a good crack and got the bonus point".

He's right.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Sorry but home wins do not put you in the plays offs 13 x 5pts and i'm being very generous with all matches won with a bonus point =65pts Last season Castres were 6th with 66pts take an average of 4.5 pts and you ge t58.5 you have to find another 7.5pts so you need more than home wins..... home wins do not get you into the playoffs, well certainly not last season, and this season will be just as tight.

 

[goodNumber10]

*sigh* not literally, you pick up bonus points here and there, but the home wins are your banker points, you don't drop them they keep teams in the hunt and teams in the league.. teams that drop home wins don't make the play offs and teams that drop a lot of home wins get relegated.

read this: http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/03/14/french-top-14-fundamentally-flawed/

The point Saffy is making is valid, teams are not expected to win away form home, therefore there is less pressure on the kicker/team when they go away.

 

[gaston le gaff]

In that case state what you mean and not what you are thinking, you stated home wins get you in the playoff sigh or no sigh and they do not end of story. After reading the first para i stopped!!! another story teller who knows nothing about the TOP 14, I have been a club official for 9 seasons with Montpellier and know just a little how it works. The point is not valid, teams are expected to win away from home not all games but you try telling Boujelah and Laporte or other presidents and coaches they are not expected to win away from home they would just laugh in your face You have a mis-conception of 30yrs ago and i may have agreed with you then as i was playing French rugby, but not anymore can you say this. Whats more when Wisineiski missed the kick to win the game against us why did he then go back onto the pitch with nobody in the stadium to practice from where he had failed in the last few minutes of the match, he even stated in the match interview that he had to get rid of the pressure of missing the last kick which would have probably won the game!!!! So less pressure never!!! and i was present at the interview part of my functions at the club... i apprieciate everybodies opinion, and they have a right to it but sometimes dont believe all you read...............

 

[goodNumber10]

you should have read further than one paragraph, you may have learnt the difference between Statistical and Anecdotal evidence.

So far over this season, home sides in the Top 14 have an 84% winning percentage. This means the very best sides in French rugby are routinely beaten by much poorer sides due to home/away advantage alone.
This stat is a staggering figure, particularly when compared to other domestic rugby competitions.
For instance, homes sides in the Aviva Premiership have a winning percentage of around 56%. Similarly, home sides in the Pro 12 and Super Rugby have a winning percentage of 58% and 57%, respectively.

that was the 2012/2013 season.

I appreciate that you have been a club official for 9 years but that doesn't mean your opinion is defacto correct or that everyone but you has no experience of senior club rugby in france.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Actually the point I was making was that Wilkinson was worth the 56,000 per game because he would deliver when it matters, that's it. You can say I know nothing about the Top 14 and that you've been a club official and all that but I know enough that Mr Wilkinson has a Top 14 winners medal and a couple Hcups and FTD has a participant medal he proudly puts in his empty trophy cabinet.
Evertime I ever talk too you about FTD you take it as me saying he's crap when I actually rate the guy, but you are so smart and wise that I must be wrong. All I know is that whwn it gets to the last kick of the season in the final near the touchline I would pick Wilko too take it. Who would you pick ?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Never did i say i was right and its my opinion, right or wrong but i do have a degree of good informations at source, just giving good evidence where possible, you did not know about the Wisnieski incident now you do, you mentioned no pressure away from home i gave you personal experiences, so am i wrong or did the player himself lie to the press or did he not even practice kicking after the game?????!!!!! Home wins are more often than not in French rugby, but there are many reasons for it. I have been to several grounds in the UK and apart from Leicester, was there last season, the crowd participation is nowhere near the intensity of Toulon Clermont Montpellier Toulouse Bayonne just to mention a few, another advantage for winning at home!!!
Percentages are always farcical as used always by politicians and the true story is often elsewhere, why not state last seasons %'s instead of 2 seasons ago what we are debating is now!!! not 2 seasons ago!!!!!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Actually the point I was making was that Wilkinson was worth the 56,000 per game because he would deliver when it matters, that's it. You can say I know nothing about the Top 14 and that you've been a club official and all that but I know enough that Mr Wilkinson has a Top 14 winners medal and a couple Hcups and FTD has a participant medal he proudly puts in his empty trophy cabinet.
Evertime I ever talk too you about FTD you take it as me saying he's crap when I actually rate the guy, but you are so smart and wise that I must be wrong. All I know is that whwn it gets to the last kick of the season in the final near the touchline I would pick Wilko too take it. Who would you pick ?

You either dont read what i say or just invent, never did i say you said he was crap i am just defending FTD!!!, you talked about pressure kicking i have an excellent example end of story, everyone knows how good Jonnie was but its over!!! there are new kids on the block, the guys is a legend i will admit and he came to France to understand what the Bouclier means in France now he knows after losing it once, he stayed solely to win it or at least try, that he did and he said that not me.
as i said previously Jonnie missed 3 or 4 against us and we won nobody is perfect not even FTD, who is also very well paid, against Clermont and Castres he was part of the reasons why we won. Nobody is calling anyone idiots or talking crap if do not agree, i will say so but seldom do i not respect the other person or persons with whom i am debating, not always the case on this forum.

 

[goodNumber10]

Never did i say i was right and its my opinion, right or wrong but i do have a degree of good informations at source, just giving good evidence where possible, you did not know about the Wisnieski incident now you do, you mentioned no pressure away from home i gave you personal experiences, so am i wrong or did the player himself lie to the press or did he not even practice kicking after the game?????!!!!! Home wins are more often than not in French rugby, but there are many reasons for it. I have been to several grounds in the UK and apart from Leicester, was there last season, the crowd participation is nowhere near the intensity of Toulon Clermont Montpellier Toulouse Bayonne just to mention a few, another advantage for winning at home!!!
Percentages are always farcical as used always by politicians and the true story is often elsewhere, why not state last seasons %'s instead of 2 seasons ago what we are debating is now!!! not 2 seasons ago!!!!!

Had my year wrong that WAS last seasons stats. 2013/2014.

%are facts. You interpret then how you want of course. What you can't argue is that home teams in the Top 14 win a large % than away wins. To me that means less pressure on the away team.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Had my year wrong that WAS last seasons stats. 2013/2014.

%are facts. You interpret then how you want of course. What you can't argue is that home teams in the Top 14 win a large % than away wins. To me that means less pressure on the away team.

What i cant understand is less pressure!!! the pressure is there always!!! i talk to our players they go everywhere to win, because there are more wins at home does not mean there is less pressure away from home, to have a great season there must be practicaly all home wins, which are as you say high % at home, but that is not enough to be in the 1st or 2nd or even 3rd or 4th to get a 1/4 final home game at the end of the season so games have to be won away , that is enormous calculated and is applied with pressure as far as i have experience and have been told by many players from the elite, because if you do not win on the road you may not even finish in the Top 6, ok 30 yrs ago maybe but not any more

 

[Big Ewis]

I didn't see that game so I had no idea it happened. If so well done him, I did watch the Racing v Mont game where he missed some easy kicks and it lost you the game, that's the difference between Wilko and the rest, how many games did he cost Toulon ? Genuine question for people too think about.
Also Clermont is a big game but 3rd game of the season away from home with no expectations to win, also no Cotter so they dont look as good. It's a big game but no where near Top 14 finals and Hcup finals.

haven't read the whole dialog betw. you and gaston, but I think you're being too mainstream about Wilko. Yes until last year he was the best FH in the Top 14 most probably, something I'll give him just based on what a class individual he is overall, as the rest of France I wouldn't get pedantic about that as I find it cheap.
But let's not forget a few things: he was on the most looked after club in all Europe, probably the world, loaded with good-to-excellent talent throughout. His role was quite minimal in terms of what he actually did on the field *compared to* younger Trinh-Duc or a Urdapilleta who really have to put in a monumental shift every single weekend. Wilko always had Giteau as first center and with whom he shared his maestro's stick a lot, and wasn't as involved in the game as other younger flyhalves around.
I used the word "mainstream" because the image of the faultless hero that Wilko was to some extent has been fairly exaggerated.

Here's just an easy example of a game he "cost his team" as you put it. The 2013 Top 14 final, nothing short of it:

Missed 3 of 6, and wasn't Mr. Drop Goal, a near-comically inexperienced Rémi Talès was and stood very tall during this most important season finale. His famous two drops in the last 7 minutes.

So I don't see it as payers "costing their teams" a win unless they really choke on every important kick as a pattern. But FTD is quite clutch himself and has come a long way since being the hubristic youth who wore the Bleus jersey back some time ago. And he's absolutely ubiquitous: he's everywhere, does everything.

I reiterate: Wilko and Sexton weren't worth *that much* money. Wilko being the highest paid player in the Top 14 ? Fair. But that much more than other premiere flyhalves, nope. And Sexton's case is even more deplorable given the productivity he's shown.

 

[TheSaffycen]

See now Ewis you showed fact and gave a good reason based upon it. I agree that is a massive game in which he cost his team the league, and was out shone on that occasion, but he doesn't normally let his team down. Wilkinson delivered for club and country on 95% of the games he played. That is worth the extra 10,000+ over the rest. He also brings alot of advertising money and club stature.

 

[gaston le gaff]

jonnie will always be one of the best remembered of 10's and for more than one occaison, i have had the priveledge of meeting him and his work ethics are second to none, Canal+ did a training video on him 2 seasons ago, monumental, it is even said by Laporte the day of the final in Dublin, he was got getting out of bed at 7.00 AM when he saw Jonnie disappearing in a taxi to go and practice his kicking, but if he stays at Toulon he will be a massive asset behind the scenes. As far as the monet is concerned Toulon has always been the fore runner in high wages and Jonnie arrived at just the right moment, he earned his wages where as Sexton i have my doubts.

 

[TheSaffycen]

And I agree with you on sexton and if people want too discuss further I feel we should move to the 'which position makes the most money' tbread thing as we have moved from rumours

 

[Big Ewis]

See now Ewis you showed fact and gave a good reason based upon it. I agree that is a massive game in which he cost his team the league, and was out shone on that occasion, but he doesn't normally let his team down. Wilkinson delivered for club and country on 95% of the games he played. That is worth the extra 10,000+ over the rest. He also brings alot of advertising money and club stature.

neither do FTD, Giteau or Urdapilleta.
And what I said before that post stands. I don't have to throw in attachments or bring up particular matches for my comments to be based on things I've observed.

 

[TheSaffycen]

neither do FTD, Giteau or Urdapilleta.
And what I said before that post stands. I don't have to throw in attachments or bring up particular matches for my comments to be based on things I've observed.

No but you have too back up what you say. You can't just write Farrell is the best in the world, and not back it up with 'HAVE YOU SEEN EVERY SINGLE SECOND OF HIM PLAY, NO DIDN'T THINK SO'