EPS Form Watch

[RedruthRFC]

No it's not.

It's showing that his average meters per carry is lower (because it is).

His average metres per game will be higher (because it is).

I think that it's got to the stage that you're arguing the same thing from a slightly different angle!

Whether or not it is "hurting" his stats depends on who is reading them. I understand your point that they're not in your eyes because your "fundamental analysis" means that you understand what can impact upon average metres run. To the casual Sky Sports viewer, a player who makes 2.5m further than another player per metre must be a better player.

The interesting question to me is which (if any) stats can be informative in isolation and is it possible to devise new statistics that would be along the lines of the South African site I linked to above.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'd be very interested in a thread on stats and the value thereof. Although I tend to the view that the stats available to the layman are too simplistic to be really revealing, I could probably stand to learn a bit about how some of what we have might be interpreted.

The stats I do find useful are "work rate" stats like tackles made/carries, as well as clean breaks and defenders beaten because these are both things which are always positive outcomes.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Whether or not it is "hurting" his stats depends on who is reading them. I understand your point that they're not in your eyes because your "fundamental analysis" means that you understand what can impact upon average metres run. To the casual Sky Sports viewer, a player who makes 2.5m further than another player per metre must be a better player.

When does a sky sports viewer get shown the metres per carry stat isolated from number of runs (average or total).

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't think I've ever seen a "metres per run" stat that I haven't created.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm not saying that no sports data is worth analysing. I'm saying that some of the metrics are meaningless because they conflate too many conflicting ideas. I also think that the data is a bit too limited by not providing some very basic measures, such as number of rucks hit, which make analysis of e.g. second rows near useless. Finally, I don't think there's a great deal of inferential value in the data because a major uncontrolled aspect of the data comes down to the team the player plays for: you can't really infer how someone will play for England based on their performances playing for their clubs because you will have different roles at each side.

Finally, analysis and presentation of statistical data is a professional skill, but sporting statistics and data are generally presented by people who are not trained statistically. So it should always be treated with caution. Most people who see a kicking percentage won't think to question what that means.

 

[RedruthRFC]

When does a sky sports viewer get shown the metres per carry stat isolated from number of runs (average or total).

Really? I thought it was a clear metaphor for a casual observer. Obviously not.

I understand that you hate it when anybody has the audacity to even come close to contradicting one of your posts, but in the context of this thread and many others, it would be a lot more constructive if you would cease playing with semantics and explain your opinion with posts of more than ten words (not meant literally).

 

[Raggs]

I believe it was something of a 'cause and effect' type scenario - no doubt he'll say he was left out and that affected his game. Davies would probably say he was left out because of his attitude.
He had a lot of injuries that year too but how much of which was kinda difficult to say.

Mind you, I'm not Davies' biggest fan anyway. Entirely too much ego (and god knows what he got up to while at the Scarlets - Can't remember if what I've heard are rumours or established facts).

I don't know what Burns' said, but I've heard that he was left out from a few places. Leaving someone out, yet still playing them, isn't leaving them out, if you want the best for your club, even if you hate the guy, if he has to play, he has to be in on the meetings.

------------

As for meters, sometimes we see gainline successes shown, which is a useful stat. I've also occasionally seen a meters after the tackle (1st tackle attempt I assume) which is really useful. Without those, defenders beaten is probably as good as it gets.

 

[Which Tyler]

Rocco tells us what more he has to do: http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath...-eddie-jones/story-30015017-detail/story.html

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Makes sense,
I think his positioning/defensive issues were massively over egged after the fiji game but as he says: at international level errors are amplified.
Hopefully we get to see him for England again in the not to distant, though with Watson and Norwell returning, and Daly getting game time there, it's a big task ahead.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Makes sense,
I think his positioning/defensive issues were massively over egged after the fiji game but as he says: at international level errors are amplified.
Hopefully we get to see him for England again in the not to distant, though with Watson and Norwell returning, and Daly getting game time there, it's a big task ahead.

I know this has been covered but I don't see why Roko is having this pointed out for him but Yarde, who made an almost identical mistake plus more, doesn't seem to have his defence being questioned... Nowell also frequently got caught on the outside, it is a failure of the English defence out wide and isn't anything new yet Roko is the only one being blamed for it.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Did anyone see the long Eddie Jones interview on BT. A few interesting bits to note. He stated we have opportunities to players he shouldn't have. He judged a few personalities wrong and he stated he didn't bring some players in quick enough.

Quite an interesting insight really. I assume Burrell is the the one who shouldn't have been given the opportunity. Can't think of anyone else who he hasn't played again.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Did anyone see the long Eddie Jones interview on BT. A few interesting bits to note. He stated we have opportunities to players he shouldn't have. He judged a few personalities wrong and he stated he didn't bring some players in quick enough.

Quite an interesting insight really. I assume Burrell is the the one who shouldn't have been given the opportunity. Can't think of anyone else who he hasn't played again.

Harrison maybe? He did play again after getting hauled off early but only when we were so short of back row that Wood was picked ahead of him

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I know this has been covered but I don't see why Roko is having this pointed out for him but Yarde, who made an almost identical mistake plus more, doesn't seem to have his defence being questioned... Nowell also frequently got caught on the outside, it is a failure of the English defence out wide and isn't anything new yet Roko is the only one being blamed for it.

Yeah it is really weird how the media doesn't pick up on anything wrong yarde does

 

[Every Time Ref]

Yeah it is really weird how the media doesn't pick up on anything wrong yarde does

I find it hard to fathom with regard to the comparison between the two. I know I'm subject to unconscious bias like anyone, so I've tried really hard to look for reasons to pick Yarde over Roko but I honestly can't see them - because as RR said, the only realistic weakness of Roko, Yarde is at least equally guilty of. Straight line speed maybe? Not convinced given Nowell's obviously rated, but maybe?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Don't believe we'll see Rocco in an England shirt again, except in an injury crisis.

Can't believe I missed the stats argument above! I'm of the treat them very sceptically school.

In the case of a FB breaking the gain line by 10 metres, is that down to him busting a tackle or does most of the credit go to the fly half who spotted the mismatch and delayed the pass to put him through the hole? Or did he actually blow an overlap by running those extra metres rather than passing? Did he run away from his support and get isolated? And so on ad infinitum.

Measuring sheer volume of carries, tackles or rucks hit etc is only a tantalising glimpse of the whole story. It would be much more illuminating to measure effectiveness - how often a player makes a "decisive intervention" (or cock up).

In true O level style I'll finish with a quote from Aaron Levenstein. "Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital".

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Harrison maybe? He did play again after getting hauled off early but only when we were so short of back row that Wood was picked ahead of him

I thought that as well. With Clifford injured and wood brought in maybe he was brought in when his club form this season has been terrible.