USA news & politics

[Welsh Exile]

Rhetoric is 100% where they differ, both have done disgraceful things, Obama presented it with a classy exterior and statesmanly manner.

But my point is, Obama was voting for policies that in 2006 were common sense, that 10 years later were called deeply racist. 2005 common sense has become politically conveniently bad, because the Democrats say so.

Thats why im surprised when I make the claim there are alignments, its met with 'no' 'nothing' and 'brainworms'

Seeing as we agree their messaging was different maybe do a breakdown of their policies in each of the areas I mentioned and we'll see where they are similar and where they differ.

 

[dirty harry]

Well look at that, if it isn't Harry playing semantic pedantry. Nothing alike =/= literally no overlap anywhere at all. Straight out of the Jordan Peterson book. Meanwhile you've gone from Obama liberals are literally MAGA voters to thinking all you need is to find 1 area of similarity.

Let's torpedo this line of bullshit. If I can find 1 similarity between Trump's policies and the Nazis, Trump is therefore a Nazi. Maybe whilst at it if I find 1 policy similarity between Julius Caesar and Gandhi, then clearly Gandhi wanted to build a vast empire that men would think about every 3 days.

Try just for once to not spout BS.

"No, not even remotely close."

"They are nothing alike"

I do apologise, I was confused by your ambiguous language about their similarities, see i thought that "nothing" meant the absence of anything; no thing; not one thing.

you must be using a newer version of the term, where nothing means many things, and not even remotely close means aligned on a number of issues.

Come on, just acknowledge it was a stupid counter point to a reasonable stance that Obama and Trump were aligned on policies, and utilised similar campaign strategies, even for the narrow parameters of the dem rep paradigm, and not the stupid childish 'well Hitler drank water'.

Obama and co were enacting and voting on policies Trjmp agreed with and they only turned on those policies when politically convenient. Ive said this before, the Democrats big problem right now is that they dont stand for anything, they just stand against Trump, and it doesnt enthuse.

Democrats need to be proactive, not reactive.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

"No, not even remotely close."

"They are nothing alike"

I do apologise, I was confused by your ambiguous language about their similarities, see i thought that "nothing" meant the absence of anything; no thing; not one thing.

you must be using a newer version of the term, where nothing means many things, and not even remotely close means aligned on a number of issues.

Come on, just acknowledge it was a stupid counter point to a reasonable stance that Obama and Trump were aligned on policies, and utilised similar campaign strategies, even for the narrow parameters of the dem rep paradigm, and not the stupid childish 'well Hitler drank water'.

Obama and co were enacting and voting on policies Trjmp agreed with and they only turned on those policies when politically convenient. Ive said this before, the Democrats big problem right now is that they dont stand for anything, they just stand against Trump, and it doesnt enthuse.

Democrats need to be proactive, not reactive.

If all you have is semantic pedantry then you have nothing.

It was not a reasonable point, it was an utterly stupid point. Obama and Trump are not similar, did not utilise similar campaign strategies and do not have similar policies. Current MAGA voters are overwhelmingly NOT Obama voters as many were and are distinctly anti Obama. You've conflating people who voted for Trump with MAGA, not all Trump voters are MAGA.

 

[dirty harry]

Seeing as we agree their messaging was different maybe do a breakdown of their policies in each of the areas I mentioned and we'll see where they are similar and where they differ.

Thats fair.

Lets start with Healthcare:

Surprisingly similar, with the obvious differences.

Both promised universal coverage Both promised radical reform of a broken system, both blamed big pharma before U turning and getting into bed with them (ome more than the other), both promised lower pricing for drugs, and both opposed individual mandates originally (I think).

The key differences were Obama care, proved to be expensive, opposed market competition as promised, and let most people outside of the most vulnerable down, but to be fare it was always going to struggle early years, especially with the Republican hissy fits. Trump did Uturn on it, partially.

I think the biggest difference in healthcare between the 2 is the big vs smaller government, social programmes vs market competition, and the outcomes of both.

Ive probably missed loads off that tbf, the broken promises, the arguments in Congress etc

 

[dirty harry]

If all you have is semantic pedantry then you have nothing.

It was not a reasonable point, it was an utterly stupid point. Obama and Trump are not similar, did not utilise similar campaign strategies and do not have similar policies. Current MAGA voters are overwhelmingly NOT Obama voters as many were and are distinctly anti Obama. You've conflating people who voted for Trump with MAGA, not all Trump voters are MAGA.

Hahahaha and im the pedant lol.

Just look at your statement again, like they didnt use the cult of personality, run on being outsiders, used social media progressively, both didnt tap into the disaffected, and run on a change to the system, both didnt identify the border, economic struggles, and healthcare as key components...

Hell, Trump probably stole most of his strategy plans straight from the Obama playbook.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hahahaha and im the pedant lol.

Just look at your statement again, like they didnt use the cult of personality, run on being outsiders, used social media progressively, both didnt tap into the disaffected, and run on a change to the system, both didnt identify the border, economic struggles, and healthcare as key components...

Hell, Trump probably stole most of his strategy plans straight from the Obama playbook.

God you're delusional. You think what you listed would make them similar? Laughable.

 

[AlRums]

Trump seeks up to $230M from DOJ over alleged targeting — may spend on WH ballroom

President Trump is seeking a potential financial settlement from the Justice Department to resolve his complaints of being targeted by FBI misconduct, The Post has learned.

nypost.com

This is going to be effectively open theft, I don't see the orange-utan's own DOJ opposing this.

In fact they have been the ones openly making false statements about it.

 

[AlRums]

Trump seeks up to $230M from DOJ over alleged targeting — may spend on WH ballroom

President Trump is seeking a potential financial settlement from the Justice Department to resolve his complaints of being targeted by FBI misconduct, The Post has learned.

nypost.com

This is going to be effectively open theft, I don't see the orange-utan's own DOJ opposing this.

In fact they have been the ones openly making false statements about it.

Donald Trump reacts to report he’s seeking $230 million from DOJ

Trump said he could donate any repayment to charity or use it to help fund a new ballroom under construction at the White House.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Which Tyler]

'404 file not found'

Hunting for DH's integrity?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hunting for DH's integrity?

 

[dirty harry]

God you're delusional. You think what you listed would make them similar? Laughable.

Once again, matoke sure your stretching for such a quick sharp turn, im amazed your not dizzy the amount of Uturns, sharp rights, and pivots you've performed hahahaha.

So your not arguing they had similar campaign strategies, or were aligned on policies any more?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Once again, matoke sure your stretching for such a quick sharp turn, im amazed your not dizzy the amount of Uturns, sharp rights, and pivots you've performed hahahaha.

So your not arguing they had similar campaign strategies, or were aligned on policies any more?

One again you assert something completely detached from reality, this time the weird perception that I've u turned it made sharp turns. Just because you assert something is true Harry, doesn't make it so. I would have thought you'd have learned that by now but nope.

You just carry on with your alternative reality and alternative facts where Trump and Obama are alike and their supporters are the same. I'll stick to reality and not waste any more time in your contrarian act.

I mean really, saying Trump, one of the most petty and vindictive men out there, who even made his own social media platform to continue mouthing off, laughs off insults? Completely detached from reality.

 

[Welsh Exile]

So I guess you're saying even though they said completely different things the end result of what they did was still very similar.

I can't agree with that. As I say, I'm sure there's some similarities or crossover as there is with anything but speaking in very broad terms, Obama was "yes we can" and was generally inclusive and looked to rebuild America following the 2007 crash whereas Trump ran on a nationalist, isolationist "America first" campaign.

All politicians will essentially say "America first" and "wars are bad" and any other generic stuff you can think of but when you look at the messaging and end results it's night and day.

Also, I thought the thing that was crucial to Trump getting elected (and growing in popularity) was the fact everyone on the left called Trump and his supporters racist and Trump played into that and benefited greatly. What is the similarity between that and Obama?

 

[dirty harry]

One again you assert something completely detached from reality, this time the weird perception that I've u turned it made sharp turns. Just because you assert something is true Harry, doesn't make it so. I would have thought you'd have learned that by now but nope.

You just carry on with your alternative reality and alternative facts where Trump and Obama are alike and their supporters are the same. I'll stick to reality and not waste any more time in your contrarian act.

I mean really, saying Trump, one of the most petty and vindictive men out there, who even made his own social media platform to continue mouthing off, laughs off insults? Completely detached from reality.

Ok, lets take your stance to a specific....

My assertion is that Trump 2016 has some similar campaign strategies and policies as 2006/9 Obama.

You disagree they are similar at all and totally opposite? Have I mischaracterised your stance?

 

[dirty harry]

So I guess you're saying even though they said completely different things the end result of what they did was still very similar.

I can't agree with that. As I say, I'm sure there's some similarities or crossover as there is with anything but speaking in very broad terms, Obama was "yes we can" and was generally inclusive and looked to rebuild America following the 2007 crash whereas Trump ran on a nationalist, isolationist "America first" campaign.

All politicians will essentially say "America first" and "wars are bad" and any other generic stuff you can think of but when you look at the messaging and end results it's night and day.

Also, I thought the thing that was crucial to Trump getting elected (and growing in popularity) was the fact everyone on the left called Trump and his supporters racist and Trump played into that and benefited greatly. What is the similarity between that and Obama?

Not at all, dont play Ragey games.

My stance is that Obama 2000s and trump 2010 shared similarities.

As I showed above, they werent polar opposites on Healthcare, but lets take border policy.

Trumps Wall was an extension of the fence act which Obama was in favour of. Obama campaigned on stopping illegal crossings at the southern border, and bragged about his efficiency of this throughout his first term and campaigning for his 2nd term, infact even during his 2nd term he both bragged about boots on the border, record reduction of crossings and built loads of detention centres...

So, when we talk about similarities, we have to accept facts as evidence, ive already agreed that their messaging and rhetoric is very different, but they had similar border policy.

Infact, id use the Obama U turn as part of the reason Trump keeps winning and Democrats losing, 2014 Obama builds detention centres, including the chain linked fenced areas, and when Trump is in power Democrats are calling the border policy that they implemented and engaged in was racist, and these detention centres they built were cages lol.

Its that lack of integrity and reactive opposition regardless of the issue that harms them, that messaging will not win.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not at all, dont play Ragey games.

My stance is that Obama 2000s and trump 2010 shared similarities.

As I showed above, they werent polar opposites on Healthcare, but lets take border policy.

Trumps Wall was an extension of the fence act which Obama was in favour of. Obama campaigned on stopping illegal crossings at the southern border, and bragged about his efficiency of this throughout his first term and campaigning for his 2nd term, infact even during his 2nd term he both bragged about boots on the border, record reduction of crossings and built loads of detention centres...

So, when we talk about similarities, we have to accept facts as evidence, ive already agreed that their messaging and rhetoric is very different, but they had similar border policy.

Infact, id use the Obama U turn as part of the reason Trump keeps winning and Democrats losing, 2014 Obama builds detention centres, including the chain linked fenced areas, and when Trump is in power Democrats are calling the border policy that they implemented and engaged in was racist, and these detention centres they built were cages lol.

Its that lack of integrity and reactive opposition regardless of the issue that harms them, that messaging will not win.

I'm not playing any games. I'm genuinely, and quite patiently I might add, trying to find out what your claim is. You started this off by saying

"Essentially be Barrack obama, unapologetically Barrack O Bama for 2010, implement his policies,"

This sounds like you think they're more than just similar. This reads like all the GOP have to do is be Barack Obama both in character and policy. Now, you've clarified that in character they are completely different so it then becomes a question of how similar their policies are. You say healthcare and immigration polices are similar, fair enough, I personally disagree but I get how you can say there's some cross over there but what else? If they are very similar you should be able to give me, at a minimum, 3 or 4 polices for each of education, immigration, economy, healthcare, defence and crime and we can see what's what. Unless your argument is that they shared some similarities but on the whole were pretty different?

 

[Which Tyler]

I'll stick to reality and not waste any more time in your contrarian act.

How many times is that now?
And yet (and plenty of others) keep getting roped back in, and feed him again

 

[BrokenWing]

Do not feed the emotional vampire

 

[Welsh Exile]

How many times is that now?
And yet (and plenty of others) keep getting roped back in, and feed him again

I can understand why many don't want to engage with him as he can be frustrating in nailing down what he actually thinks. HOWEVER, I do think he also shares views he genuinely holds. For example, I genuinely do think he believes all politicians are essentially the same (he obviously recognises differences in character and the way they go about things but he thinks they're al corrupt, power seeking people who don't care about the people) these views I personally quite like to challenge.

One thing Harry is 100% spot on about, and it is a major problem on the left more so than on the right, is this refusal from people on the left to even engage. There's this attitude of "this guy is bad and therefore not worth engaging with" now, I'd agree when it comes to trolling and I'm sorry @dirty harry you are guilty of this (as we all can be from time to time) but, when there is something substantive to talk about I absolutely detest that attitude. If you have strong convictions for your beliefs then you should be able to argue your point not just say "no I'm not going to engage" if you do that then I'm afraid to say Harry is right and all you do is surround yourself in a echo chamber and learn nothing and certainly don't get any closer to defeating the people who hold these views. It's why I'll never put anyone on ignore.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm not playing any games. I'm genuinely, and quite patiently I might add, trying to find out what your claim is. You started this off by saying

"Essentially be Barrack obama, unapologetically Barrack O Bama for 2010, implement his policies,"

This sounds like you think they're more than just similar. This reads like all the GOP have to do is be Barack Obama both in character and policy. Now, you've clarified that in character they are completely different so it then becomes a question of how similar their policies are. You say healthcare and immigration polices are similar, fair enough, I personally disagree but I get how you can say there's some cross over there but what else? If they are very similar you should be able to give me, at a minimum, 3 or 4 polices for each of education, immigration, economy, healthcare, defence and crime and we can see what's what. Unless your argument is that they shared some similarities but on the whole were pretty different?

You disagree Obama voting for a hard border, and then bragging about stopping border crossings and how many hes deported is similar to Trump?

Mate, if you cant bring a level of integrity to acknowledge this obvious fact then you arent being good faith.

Lets play a game, Trump quote or Obama quote? I bet you won't!

The fact is Trumps border policy is an extention of Obamas, the reason ICE has increased powers in the 2020s is the obama reforms, allowing fingerprinting collaboration, increased resources, and prioritisation.

To not acknowledge Trump and Obama being pretty much identical on border policy, down to the fact I think Trump is trying to break Obamas deportation record, is just wildly dishonest, or and i mean this in the nicest way, a particularly ignorant opinion.