Warm Up Match 7: Hurricanes v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[RugbyMarvel]

A half-wit? Thanks haha

Honestly north looked better being involved, however his distribution is still poor... and defensively it was his poor read which allowed Savea through I think, so wouldnt fully trust him in the centre with reads like that

What is needed is for him to take some tips from Jack Nowell and come in off his wing more often, searching for ball off 9 and 10, maybe 12 too, being in and around the centres for when they potentially make line breaks

Ever since North has played for Saints, he hasn't looked for work. If he was given some opportunity in the prem to play at 12 it might give him an opportunity to understand the lines he needs to be running, but as you said about his read on Savea, he may be too defensively suspect

 

[RugbyMarvel]

A half-wit? Thanks haha

Honestly north looked better being involved, however his distribution is still poor... and defensively it was his poor read which allowed Savea through I think, so wouldnt fully trust him in the centre with reads like that

What is needed is for him to take some tips from Jack Nowell and come in off his wing more often, searching for ball off 9 and 10, maybe 12 too, being in and around the centres for when they potentially make line breaks

Ever since North has played for Saints, he hasn't looked for work. If he was given some opportunity in the prem to play at 12 it might give him an opportunity to understand the lines he needs to be running, but as you said about his read on Savea, he may be too defensively suspect

 

[Jakedood]

Ever since North has played for Saints, he hasn't looked for work. If he was given some opportunity in the prem to play at 12 it might give him an opportunity to understand the lines he needs to be running, but as you said about his read on Savea, he may be too defensively suspect

Thats an area of the game he needs to work on... though Saints seem to have just killed him, maybe taken one for English rugby as a whole? Yes that's tongue in cheek..

I'd love to see him outside a really talented, maverick fly half, like Ford, Sam Davies, Russell, etc, one of these guys who plays in the face of defenders and just has a little magic to them (talking about him on the wing still here), and they involve him coming off his wing, but I feel he also needs to maybe work on the agile side of being winger. His running technique and high knees are not fun to tackle, but I feel his step is actually very effective, and he can be so much more than just a big, strong, fast winger.

So much potential, but in terms of at 12, not a hope, he doesnt read the game anywhere near well enough to be played there IMO, all he can do is take crash balls and thats just not enough

 

[DanCarterite]

So who would you say it is then? Dan Biggar?
IMO it's between Gareth Edwards, Jonah Lomu and DC. Since I never actually saw Edwards, I'd lean towards one of the other two.

I rarely post, even though I read everything here, but this discussion really caught my attention for a number of reasons, Gareth Edwards is the reason I fell in love with Rugby and is still my favorite player of all time, Dan Carter in my opinion is the most complete player ever to pull on a number 10 shirt, but Jonah ahh there is the rub, whilst I certainly enjoyed him bowling over a couple of Englishmen here and there I have never considered him a "greatest ever" even if only wings were considered, I would actually class him with Julian Savea, great at times but inconsistent, could go missing for long periods in a match and his work rate was never the best, every time I see discussions about Julian I am reminded of similar discussions about Jonah. For what it's worth I rate Jeff Wilson as my favorite/best winger ever. In a 20 greatest players of all time list, Dan Carter would edge it for me, but Gareth will always be my favorite, oh and BOD would get an honorable mention but no place on that list.

 

[munstermuffin]

I can't see AWJ in the 23, Gats will have seen the light by now.

Has he though?
Lawes and Henderson 100% played their way in to it but will they be rewarded.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Thats an area of the game he needs to work on... though Saints seem to have just killed him, maybe taken one for English rugby as a whole? Yes that's tongue in cheek..

I'd love to see him outside a really talented, maverick fly half, like Ford, Sam Davies, Russell, etc, one of these guys who plays in the face of defenders and just has a little magic to them (talking about him on the wing still here), and they involve him coming off his wing, but I feel he also needs to maybe work on the agile side of being winger. His running technique and high knees are not fun to tackle, but I feel his step is actually very effective, and he can be so much more than just a big, strong, fast winger.

So much potential, but in terms of at 12, not a hope, he doesnt read the game anywhere near well enough to be played there IMO, all he can do is take crash balls and thats just not enough

Oh I don't think he could ever be a 12, but he could learn some skills from that position or 13 which would serve him well in the long term.

In complete agreement with you about him being outside a talented fly half. The thought of him hitting short lines off the shoulder is scary, maybe a few lessons from Chris Ashton in that department could improve him. North just doesn't seem to run enough support lines!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Definitely on Munstermuffen's side here, we're talking about a guy who ****** up by calling up Welsh reserves to a Lions tour and then ****** up in his **** up by not using them yesterday and missing out on a win because of it. He's the most stubborn and stupid coach in rugby, has coached this team into a position where it is absolutely impossible for them to win a test and will almost certainly double down by picking AWJ. I'm excited to hear his excuse for touring with a stacked squad and winning 3 games against pro opposition to be honest, as it sure as hell won't be his fault!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Definitely on Munstermuffen's side here, we're talking about a guy who ****** up by calling up Welsh reserves to a Lions tour and then ****** up in his **** up by not using them yesterday and missing out on a win because of it. He's the most stubborn and stupid coach in rugby, has coached this team into a position where it is absolutely impossible for them to win a test and will almost certainly double down by picking AWJ. I'm excited to hear his excuse for touring with a stacked squad and winning 3 games against pro opposition to be honest, as it sure as hell won't be his fault!

He ****** up by picking THE worst backs coach he possibly could.
Everything else (Like calling up Wales C team players etc) has been the cherry on the **** covered cake.

I fully expect Warburton and AWJ to be in the 23 despite being behind 2-4 players in most peoples minds.

 

[ncurd]

I fully expect Warburton and AWJ to be in the 15 despite being behind 2-4 players in most peoples minds.

FTFY

 

[munstermuffin]

Definitely on Munstermuffen's side here, we're talking about a guy who ****** up by calling up Welsh reserves to a Lions tour and then ****** up in his **** up by not using them yesterday and missing out on a win because of it. He's the most stubborn and stupid coach in rugby, has coached this team into a position where it is absolutely impossible for them to win a test and will almost certainly double down by picking AWJ. I'm excited to hear his excuse for touring with a stacked squad and winning 3 games against pro opposition to be honest, as it sure as hell won't be his fault!

Which in turn helps keep AWJ and others in.
Stander (even though I'm glad he is out as he is 75% max) and Tips can't replace Warburton as "they had to play a tough slog Tuesday night will be the wording.
Lawes will make bench and play last 15 as "he was pretty beat from Tuesday so couldn't play the 80.
Henderson was good Tuesday but again played nearly the full match and it's hard to play 2 test intensity level games in 5 days in a tight 5 position.

I've heard all these excuses before. On the late call ups. I said it the moment it happened and I will say it now. The fact he refuses to play those call ups doesn't soften the insult and disgrace he brought to Lions brand by calling them up in first place. Bu to not use them and force guys to empty tank and not actually treat the game like it meant something and give it the respect is awful too. The only thing Gatland has really achieved this tour is really kill off any hopes he ever had Post 2019 of getting in with All Blacks Rugby and well Schmidt and Vern Cotter teaming up for that gig looks very real now.

Russell and Davies should've got time as both were in consideration. For rest guys like Keith Earls who was on fire last 2 months, Launchbury, Healy, Jonny Gray, Hamish Watson and few others must be so sickened.

 

[big ginger 8]

Always amazes me how there seems to be a perception that SO'B isn't good over the ball. It's possibly his strongest aspect at this stage. His power is a big help in that area, he can get steals when a ruck is at a stage that most other players couldn't even get near the ball or stay on it. He made a steal on Saturday that was a prime example of that. I think Tipuric is somewhat overrated, as a poacher, because of being on the opposite side of the scale. His speed allows him to be first to the ruck and make the steal but as a general rule he has to be a decent bit (as in around two seconds) earlier because if he's not in the perfect position he will get blown off the ball. Obviously there will be exceptions to this but that is the normal for him (and in fairness for most players). Still I definitely would have him on the bench ahead of Warburton. I'd have either him or Stander in the 20 shirt depending on he approach I wanted to take.

To chime in on the whole 'greatest' thing, it's obviously an exercise to nothing but for my money BO'D is the greatest. Of course I'm biased, but especially in a thing like this so is everyone else. BO'D wasn't simply a bright flash he was a continued flash of magnificence. At the time of his retirement he was the most capped player and is still the highest scoring centre ever. He played at the top level for 15 years, pretty much always as undersized. As rugby changed he changed as well, he burst onto the scene mostly being known as an incredibly dangerous individual threat, while he was still pretty good at everything else it was his main strength. As the game morphed following the ELVs etc he became a defensive mastermind and as good over the ball as any flanker. He still had a lot of his long range attacking ability but with defenses suddenly being more organised he became incredibly good at the pick and go. Then as his pace started to evaporate he became the one to set up the tries rather than scoring them with sublime distribution (somehow despite not being the most incredible passer). Throughout this he kept that magical skill level and inventiveness that allowed him to score those tries against Australia, New Zealand, Wasps and France all spread out across his career. Even for all this his toughness really set him apart, he was injured a lot, but always seemed to heal faster than he had any right to. Even in his thirties when he was injured and meant to be out for 12 months missing the 2012 HEC final he came back within a third of that time a play and excellent game. That's not to suggest he'd always go off with those injuries, most notably in the 2009 6N he nearly always kept getting back up and made the opposition regret that he did.

Sure as an Irish and Leinster fan I basically can't give any different answer but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an ******* excellent case.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Which in turn helps keep AWJ and others in.
Stander (even though I'm glad he is out as he is 75% max) and Tips can't replace Warburton as "they had to play a tough slog Tuesday night will be the wording.
Lawes will make bench and play last 15 as "he was pretty beat from Tuesday so couldn't play the 80.
Henderson was good Tuesday but again played nearly the full match and it's hard to play 2 test intensity level games in 5 days in a tight 5 position.

I've heard all these excuses before. On the late call ups. I said it the moment it happened and I will say it now. The fact he refuses to play those call ups doesn't soften the insult and disgrace he brought to Lions brand by calling them up in first place. Bu to not use them and force guys to empty tank and not actually treat the game like it meant something and give it the respect is awful too. The only thing Gatland has really achieved this tour is really kill off any hopes he ever had Post 2019 of getting in with All Blacks Rugby and well Schmidt and Vern Cotter teaming up for that gig looks very real now.

Russell and Davies should've got time as both were in consideration. For rest guys like Keith Earls who was on fire last 2 months, Launchbury, Healy, Jonny Gray, Hamish Watson and few others must be so sickened.

Personally was alright with original squad IMO (Maybe the odd player BUT wasn't a big gap.
The call ups have been shocking for me.
For me
Barclay over Haskell
Davis over Laidlaw
Healy over Dell
Nel over Francis
J.Gray over Hill
Price over Davis
Ford/Brown/Scannell over Dacey

All those would add something more IMO.


Might be harsh but Laidlaw has been the biggest hindrance to our team v the super rugby squads.

what was the point in calling up a front row and then not playing them, instead flogging Cole, Marler and Best for the full 80 shocking management.

 

[munstermuffin]

Personally was alright with original squad IMO (Maybe the odd player BUT wasn't a big gap.
The call ups have been shocking for me.
For me
Barclay over Haskell
Davis over Laidlaw
Healy over Dell
Nel over Francis
J.Gray over Hill
Price over Davis
Ford/Brown/Scannell over Dacey

All those would add something more IMO.


Might be harsh but Laidlaw has been the biggest hindrance to our team v the super rugby squads.

what was the point in calling up a front row and then not playing them, instead flogging Cole, Marler and Best for the full 80 shocking management.

Exactly my point. Like whatever on originals like Haskell and Laidlaw. They are original squad members (albeit late call ups but before departure).
But to pick 6 lads and then not have the guts to back your decision and use them. But more importantly put the rest of playing team at risk was a huge flaw in my eyes. It was always predetermined to bring those extra guys in and it was always with the view of getting them a bit of playing time and exposure to training at a higher level but with the view of benefitting Welsh rugby over next few years.

If it was always predetermined then why not ring Schmidt/Jones/Townsend and agree something.
Eg Lock
Gats To EJ - Loook can you bring cover at lock. I plan on maybe calling Launchbury over after the 1st test with Argentina so you may be missing him for 2nd test. Eddie would've been delighted as a) he get a player on to Lions and b) gives England a chance to try an alternative.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They say Tipuric tackles everything but I'm not sure he's supposed to tackle his own teammates
https://streamable.com/ro4i6

 

[dullonien]

Always amazes me how there seems to be a perception that SO'B isn't good over the ball. It's possibly his strongest aspect at this stage. His power is a big help in that area, he can get steals when a ruck is at a stage that most other players couldn't even get near the ball or stay on it. He made a steal on Saturday that was a prime example of that. I think Tipuric is somewhat overrated, as a poacher, because of being on the opposite side of the scale. His speed allows him to be first to the ruck and make the steal but as a general rule he has to be a decent bit (as in around two seconds) earlier because if he's not in the perfect position he will get blown off the ball. Obviously there will be exceptions to this but that is the normal for him (and in fairness for most players). Still I definitely would have him on the bench ahead of Warburton. I'd have either him or Stander in the 20 shirt depending on he approach I wanted to take.

No arguments from me with any of that. The problem as I saw it on Saturday was that SOB couldn't get himself into position to get over the ball all that often, when he did he disrupted well, or managed to make the turn-over. I don't think Warburton if selected as expected will fare any better this weekend either. He's possibly slightly quicker than SOB over the first few metres though which could help. I wouldn't expect Tips to come into the side and turn the ball over umpteen times, my thinking is that he may be able to get to the rucks a little quicker and disrupt the ball for split-second before he's inevitably driven off it, maybe tying in another attacking player at the same time. It may not make any difference at all due to how organised NZ are at the breakdown, but I know for sure that if there's a repeat of last Saturday NZ will win again regardless of how well the Lions play in other areas, the defensive line simply cannot get back into position quickly enough when the ball is recycled at such a rate.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You're supposed to dab after you score Hendy...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

This thread has been, at times, painful to read. Thanks everyone.

Gatland is an utter clown. As Muffin said, not playing the guys you foolishly called up doesn't make your choice look any better and in this case was really damaging because of the demands placed on other players. I was furious to see Henderson, having such a Stormer, play so many minutes in that game.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I rarely post, even though I read everything here, but this discussion really caught my attention for a number of reasons, Gareth Edwards is the reason I fell in love with Rugby and is still my favorite player of all time, Dan Carter in my opinion is the most complete player ever to pull on a number 10 shirt, but Jonah ahh there is the rub, whilst I certainly enjoyed him bowling over a couple of Englishmen here and there I have never considered him a "greatest ever" even if only wings were considered, I would actually class him with Julian Savea, great at times but inconsistent, could go missing for long periods in a match and his work rate was never the best, every time I see discussions about Julian I am reminded of similar discussions about Jonah. For what it's worth I rate Jeff Wilson as my favorite/best winger ever. In a 20 greatest players of all time list, Dan Carter would edge it for me, but Gareth will always be my favorite, oh and BOD would get an honorable mention but no place on that list.

Good pub debate. In the greatest ever stakes I'd go McCaw, but it all depends how you define great, how many pints you've had....

Jonah was far from the most complete player. BUT he was possibly the most capable ever at turning match through a moment (or four) of magic. In this metres per carry, rucks hit, stats driven age he may not have stacked up that well, but who wouldn't have wanted him on their side?

Going on to the SO'B / Tips breakdown conversation, its doesn't really matter who's there first if they're outnumbered by 2 or 3 to 1. The concern is more why our second or third men in aren't there quicker or commit aggressively enough.

 

[mania]

You were losing at the time, Lions were 14 points in the lead and with a penalty where we would have kicked the ball to the corner. The Canes never led once during the game.

A Canes player was always going to get binned as your ill discipline was worse than England's, and that's saying something. The Canes coughed up points every time the Lions got into your 22.

and yet still lions couldn't win it

 

[dullonien]

View attachment 5322

You're supposed to dab after you score Hendy...

No-one should dab, ever. Stupid bloody celebration that makes the person performing it look a little retarded.....