Weakest position in the All Blacks squad

[ABs2011]

oh hey...isn't this thread a total fkn waste of time at this point ??

I dunno, at least rename the thread "Least perfect position for the AB" or something, please, this is getting indecent...

P.S.: haven't followed the whole convo here...what is it basically, hooker I'm guessing ?

Yup, you are right. Has morphed into the exact opposite discussion really

I think you can make a case for centre as well it depends on how people interpret weak.

At hooker we have several OK to Good options. So we could lose on or two hookers and overall still wouldn't lose that much.

At Centre though the ABs are simply Conrad Smith with no one with even close to his experience or quality in the position to back him up. We lose him and we have a huge hole to fill and arguably we don't have a single specialist centre to replace him. Most likely Ben Smith would play centre if Conrad got injured. Probably a very good replacement but with bugger all time in the position we don't really know how he would go. After Ben Smith you really have to start digging deep and you certainly start looking weak in the position....For me that makes centre a bigger worry than hooker and the place the ABs are weakest at.

 

[ABs2011]

yeah, Aki & Ngatai would be worth considering as well.

Yup both playing well, although Ngatai seems to be playing more at fullback this season for Wellington.

The other guy I forgot to mention who is probably the standout 13 in the ITM cup is Malakai Fekitoa

 

[admartian]

Hooker and (proven) midfield depth.

 

[Big Ewis]

OK, so discussions haven't really changed from like a year ago. Hooker and midfield.
It's true Conrad Smith does everything perfectly..
And Nonu is getting less and less popular it seems amongst kiwis.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Dane Coles seems very small compared to Bismarck Du Plessis.
I genuinely worry for him.
The poor bloke looks like a school boy in short pants.
I'm sure the kid is talented etc but i do worry about his physicality.
We do not have anyone like the mighty Fitzy.
Hore has moved on.
Mealaamu has been a faithful servant and he always crosses the gain line with his low centre of gravity, thats partly why i have always referred to him as the 'Subterranean Warthog', for his effective burrowing to pinch a metre around rucks. But Kevin is getting long in the tooth (maybe not a bad thing for a warthog but never great for an All black).
The candidates for future hookers are few and far between.
Do we need to look at co-opting a prop into a hooking role? Until a clear successor rears his head, or Dan Coles grow 4 inches and gains 25 kilos.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Dane Coles seems very small compared to Bismarck Du Plessis.
I genuinely worry for him.
The poor bloke looks like a school boy in short pants.
I'm sure the kid is talented etc but i do worry about his physicality.
We do not have anyone like the mighty Fitzy.
Hore has moved on.
Mealaamu has been a faithful servant and he always crosses the gain line with his low centre of gravity, thats partly why i have always referred to him as the 'Subterranean Warthog', for his effective burrowing to pinch a metre around rucks. But Kevin is getting long in the tooth (maybe not a bad thing for a warthog but never great for an All black).
The candidates for future hookers are few and far between.
Do we need to look at co-opting a prop into a hooking role? Until a clear successor rears his head, or Dan Coles grow 4 inches and gains 25 kilos.

Liam Coltman? 6 foot 1 and 109 kgs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Coltman. Also should be first choice for the Highlanders now Hore has moved on. I've not seen him play; can someone give an appraisal of him?

Dane Coles is 103kgs. Even Bismark is not 25 kgs heavier than him - he's around 114 kgs. At least Dane Coles can throw straight at the lineout. Still will be a valuable asset for the ABs.

 

[nickdnz]

Liam Coltman? 6 foot 1 and 109 kgs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Coltman. Also should be first choice for the Highlanders now Hore has moved on. I've not seen him play; can someone give an appraisal of him?

Dane Coles is 103kgs. Even Bismark is not 25 kgs heavier than him - he's around 114 kgs. At least Dane Coles can throw straight at the lineout. Still will be a valuable asset for the ABs.

He's a pretty good player. Good ball carrier and solid enough scrummager. His lineout throwing isn't bad either. I'd say his only issue is occasionally a few basic errors. At a guess I'd say he is next in line at hooker now Elliot is out, Hore is gone and Parsons is completely overlooked.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

1-23

 

[Bada-Bing!]

He's a pretty good player. Good ball carrier and solid enough scrummager. His lineout throwing isn't bad either. I'd say his only issue is occasionally a few basic errors. At a guess I'd say he is next in line at hooker now Elliot is out, Hore is gone and Parsons is completely overlooked.

So it looks like Kevin Mealamu will be kept on next year and probably until 2015 to nurture Coles and Coltman until they are ready to take over.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

1-23

Good memories but I hope England don't keep living off this match for the next two years. Next year England face the ABs 4 times which should show where England really are.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Good memories but I hope England don't keep living off this match for the next two years. Next year England face the ABs 4 times which should show where England really are.

I don't think they will, or at least: they can't.
To be honest, as a realist, i'm expecting us to lose 3 - 0 on the tour next summer. If we can keep the scorelines decent (i.e. at least 1 or 2 games within 7 points) it'll be a decent return.
Despite the RWC being, in our back yard, in 2015 we're still not settled/are still building our side.

 

[Draggs]

I don't think they will, or at least: they can't.
To be honest, as a realist, i'm expecting us to lose 3 - 0 on the tour next summer. If we can keep the scorelines decent (i.e. at least 1 or 2 games within 7 points) it'll be a decent return.
Despite the RWC being, in our back yard, in 2015 we're still not settled/are still building our side.

You've already got the king settled at standoff.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You've already got the king settled at standoff.

Danny Cipriani is Jesus.

All other are false idols.

 

[Darwin]

Liam Coltman? 6 foot 1 and 109 kgs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Coltman. Also should be first choice for the Highlanders now Hore has moved on. I've not seen him play; can someone give an appraisal of him?

Dane Coles is 103kgs. Even Bismark is not 25 kgs heavier than him - he's around 114 kgs. At least Dane Coles can throw straight at the lineout. Still will be a valuable asset for the ABs.

As Nick states he is a good all round player. Up until 3-4 years ago he was a specialist TH prop (and he still plays there on occasions for Otago). This means he is a very good scrummager for a hooker - I have heard he is regarded as the top scrummaging hooker in the country. His lineout throwing is a still a work in progress (as it is only something he has been doing for the last few years). He has certainly made big improvements in this area over the last year, but I do worry how he will cope if the pressure goes on (a full season of Super Rugby will help here). He is a good ball runner (though not as dynamic as Coles or Mealamu), and is a very good defender - I would suggest he makes more tackles than any other hooker in the country (at a very high percentage too). Probably his only issue at the moment (apart from in-experience) is that he can be a bit over eager at times, so does give away a few too many penalties. I suspect he will thrive as the Highlanders starting hooker next season, so it would be no surprise to see him involved in the AB's squad vs England next June.

Personally I remain unconvinced about Dane Coles. He certainly has some good points, in particular his running game (which we haven't seen the best of at test level yet). His ball handling is pretty phenomenal too for a hooker, and he is an accurate lineout thrower. However while he has certainly tightened up his game in recent years I still think he plays too loose at times. While he can make yards with ball in hand this is often out in the midfield - he can pose a threat out in these wider channels, but we do need someone making the hard yards in close (especially when we have Read and/or Luatua ranging wide too). I think he needs to up his work-rate on attack a bit too - far too often I see him sea-gulling out on the wing when he should be hitting rucks (see the AB's last try vs Ireland). He does have the skills to be pretty effective running on the wing, however those skills aren't much good if we don't have tight-forwards hitting the breakdowns to secure our ball!

Danny Cipriani is Jesus.

All other are false idols.

Looks like he has just ****** himself. Possible because the true God gave him the death stare:

 

[smartcooky]

Good memories but I hope England don't keep living off this match for the next two years. Next year England face the ABs 4 times which should show where England really are.

It won't if they once again send a weakened team down under, and all indications are that they will, at least for the first test.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/205829.html

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It won't if they once again send a weakened team down under, and all indications are that they will, at least for the first test.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/205829.html

It depends who gets to the Premiership final. If it's Northampton v Saracens that's a lot of players out for us: Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Burrell, Foden, the Vunipola bros, Farrell and dare I say it Ashton (although that might be a good thing for us) .

Playing NZ on their turf is the hardest place to win in World test rugby, so the expectation is not that great here to win the series; just be competitive. At least we can make the 2nd test very competitive like Ireland did in 2012 and possibly sneak a win. Getting close in the score lines is the objective so England can build confidence and squad capable of being contenders at the RWC.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Anyone sending a weakened team to New Zealand, or South Africa or Australia for that matter is gonna get a beating.
The All Blacks will marmalise a weakened team from any nation.
Kaino is back, woohoo, feel the pain.
It's also a little bit of a chance for northern hemisphere teams to see what it's like to travel around the world at the end of a long season and have to perform far away from home.
Imagine if England had to play France in Hong Kong before they got to NZ and then Samoa as a 1 st game before heading to the garden of Eden.
The AB's take on a serious tour at the end of a hugely long season every year. So do Aussie and the saffers.
I take my hat off to those teams who have rigorous touring schedules at the end of a long season.
All blacks weakness is the moro virus and possibly the hooking position.

 

[Rhyer]

I feel like the front row and centres are the weakest. New Zealand has no real 'enforcer' anymore like South Africa, England, Ireland or France. Messam is tightening up his game which is great but they often get battered in the forwards. Very athletic players who have incredible ball skills but can get found out in the ruck because not many play a tight game. 2011 World Cup was largely due to the efforts of Kaino and Thorn doing the job of the whole pack.

New Zealand's and Australia's biggest weakness is being gutted by foreign clubs. Jeez, Carl Hayman is only 34 and stopped playing for the All Blacks in 2007, when he was 28. Imagine if he kept going? Matt Giteau and George Smith for Australia also. We all know this is a huge issue and one that does not afflict the likes of Wales, England (recently but only a minor issue), Ireland, South Africa, and France.

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree New Zealand could go with more girth. Kaino has clearly been missed all those tests after the 2011 RWC Final. The AB haven't looked as incredibly dangerous in the rucks as in recent years, at least in given examples they haven't:
- against England in Twickers 2013.
- in Paris 2013: we used Wenceslas Lauret to slow sown the ball in rucks and totally succeeded at that while the same 95kg flanker Lauret had very little impact some 2 weeks later against the Boks.
- against the Boks: the Boks will often have very thick, physical sides and his year's squad is definitely amongst the best they've ever had. They beat the Blacks up in the scrum and rucks and mauls.

This doesn't answer this thread's question directly, but I'd say the Blacks should strengthen their scrum, probably a hooker and is Woodcock really a good scrummager at LP ??..
Then, yes, an enforcer. The return of Kaino is fantastic news for the Blacks.

 

[Icemn]

I want to see more of Tim Na-Nai on 2nd 5-8 and more of TJ on 9, tom taylor on 1st 5-8, ben smith on centre (13) and coles on hooker.... for the AB mostly and some for their respective conferences...