Who's better? Lomu or Savea?

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9500342,00.html

Hansen rates Savea as a better player than Lomu. I agree; I just think he is a better all round player than Lomu. But Lomu certainly redefined the role of winger and had the single biggest impact on the world of rugby. The first global rugby union superstar of the modern era.

Who do you rate is better and why?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

this is actually close, cause from what i've seen from Lomu he just runs through people while Savea actually has some other good skills on him, like when he picked up the ball at full pace against the Waratahs was impressive and savea's offloading is pretty good too

 

[psychic duck]

Pointless debate as these days Lomu is only ever discussed with cliches about his play by those who didn't watch his career properly.

 

[Canuck]

this is actually close, cause from what i've seen from Lomu he just runs through people while Savea actually has some other good skills on him, like when he picked up the ball at full pace against the Waratahs was impressive and savea's offloading is pretty good too

I agree. Lomu is a legend and was absolutely dominant in his prime but he wasn't a great all around wing. He had speed, size, power and good off loading skills and could make some huge hits. But he could be exposed by kicks on defense, didn't have much in the way of aerial or kicking skills and his defensive organization and positioning were not that great either. Frankly I don't think his work rate compares as well to some other wingers either.

In the modern game I think he would be similar to a faster Nadolo, yes he would probably still be one of the best wingers (although I have a feeling that a modern team would use him as a number eight) and try scorers in the world but he wouldn't be far and away the best player.

It says a lot but I never even considered him the best Super Rugby winger during the early years of the league. Joeli Vidiri was always #1 to me, shame that we barely got to see any tests with him playing for the ABs.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

How about other big All Black wingers?

Bryan Williams.
Inga Tuigamala.
John Kirwan.
Joe Rokocoko.

All great player during the era they played in, hard to compare to who is 'actually better' but the skillset is much different for a modern day wing today.

 

[Canuck]

How about other big All Black wingers?

Bryan Williams.
Inga Tuigamala.
John Kirwan.
Joe Rokocoko.

Inga the winga! I haven't heard his name in a long time!

 

[psychic duck]

this is actually close, cause from what i've seen from Lomu he just runs through people while Savea actually has some other good skills on him, like when he picked up the ball at full pace against the Waratahs was impressive and savea's offloading is pretty good too

The idea that Lomu had no skills is exactly the sort of revisionist thinking from people who didn't watch his career properly. He created dozens of tries with people piling up on him and giving good offloads inside. Annoys me when people write off his power as only little guys as well and compare to him considerably less talented players like Nadolo or Banahan in the modern era. His weakness was the high ball and no kicking in a Nalaga type of way, and his career stats aren't helped by the fact he got a bit lazy particularly towards the last 2 years of his career of just hanging out on his wing and the fact he was a marked man his entire career.

I imagine if you actually watched/remembered Jonah's career fully rather the modern revision of it that always wishes to write off his achievements, then you would have been raving about when no skills Jonah could similarly scoop the ball up off his toes.

 

[nickdnz]

The idea that Lomu had no skills is exactly the sort of revisionist thinking from people who didn't watch his career properly. He created dozens of tries with people piling up on him and giving good offloads inside. Annoys me when people write off his power as only little guys as well and compare to him considerably less talented players like Nadolo or Banahan in the modern era. His weakness was the high ball and no kicking in a Nalaga type of way, and his career stats aren't helped by the fact he got a bit lazy particularly towards the last 2 years of his career of just hanging out on his wing and the fact he was a marked man his entire career.

I imagine if you actually watched/remembered Jonah's career fully rather the modern revision of it that always wishes to write off his achievements, then you would have been raving about when no skills Jonah could similarly scoop the ball up off his toes.

Agree 100%.

I like Savea and I think he is probably a better all round player, but the comparisons aren't really all that similar. Yes Savea bumps people off, he's a very strong and fast 108kg winger. Lomu was bigger by another 10kgs and 2'' and bumped people off much more regularly. Lomu had some handling skills people forget - the number of times players like Iremia, Kronfeld, Cullen and Alatini etc would benefit from Lomu sucking in three or four defenders to then pass the ball over the top of them to the support player. It also bothers me when people say he wouldn't be as effective as players are used to tackling big wingers now...it's like people forget the people Lomu trampled over who played on for another 10 years. Vickery, Tindall, Catt, Os du Randt etc, etc. He also wasn't without any of the deft skill in terms of kicking although he rarely utilized it. People talk about how it took him a long time to turn, like he was run on rails and defenses had him sussed if you just kicked behind him, however it's extremely overstated. He didn't play a game which revolved around collecting kicks, but to be fair no one kicked high balls to him, and the policy was certainly never to kick the ball back. I remember a game against Argentina when the back line was Umaga, Lomu and Cullen and Grant Nisbett comments as Umaga collected the kick "You don't see the All Blacks kick the ball back very often, but I guess why would you when you have runners like Umaga, Lomu and Cullen". Twenty seconds later Umaga runs the length of the field and offloads for an AB try.



Savea is a very well rounded winger with a lot of power. He's not the kind of freak Lomu was though, he's more like a cross between a Lomu and Howlett. He's got no real flaws to his game and he is a very powerful winger. I love Savea and his try scoring record is very impressive, but I don't think it's likely he'll maintain a 1.00 ratio...I hope he beats Howlett's AB record, or even Ohata's record if he plays for a long enough time at a high standard - but it's a tough ask. As others have mentioned, wingers tend not to last quite as long as other players, particularly All Black wingers. We always produce an abundance of great wing talent with a generally very high scoring ratio, but our most capped winger only has 68 test caps (less than any other position for the ABs).

 

[Jaguares]

Hey hey hey, I made this question 6 days ago:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...-in-La-Plata-(27-09-2014)?p=674911#post674911

I demand copyrights!

 

[Darwin]

NickdNZ sums up my thoughts pretty well. Savea is a devastating wing. Lomu was bigger, stronger, faster, and had a brilliant side-step too. I rate Savea as the best wing in world rugby at the moment, but he isn't near as devastating as Lomu was in his prime. Would Lomu be as devastating if he was playing today? I have no doubt he would. We are still yet to see a player close to possessing his speed and power, and given the more intensive training we see these days he would undoubtedly bigger, stronger, and faster than he was back then. Having two functioning kidney's would have made him even more devastating....

I do believe players need to be compared relative to their peers in their respective eras. Let's take for example Colin Meads. He is probably the most legendary All Black of all. He was a 6'3 lock weighing around 100 kgs. If he was magically transported in his prime in the modern era he probably wouldn't get a Super Rugby contract. That doesn't mean Mark Reddish is a better lock than Colin Meads was......

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm sure I remember Lomu running over the top of Phil Vickery like he wasn't even there.
He wasn't exactly a small guy.

 

[Peat]

I do believe players need to be compared relative to their peers in their respective eras. Let's take for example Colin Meads. He is probably the most legendary All Black of all. He was a 6'3 lock weighing around 100 kgs. If he was magically transported in his prime in the modern era he probably wouldn't get a Super Rugby contract. That doesn't mean Mark Reddish is a better lock than Colin Meads was......

I agree with this, but in Lomu's case, he felt so much like a player from another era it almost doesn't seem fair. There's always that temptation to see him as the first of the super-size backs era and wonder how he'd have gone in a time when backs along the same lines as him are common place and people prepare for them. But, I guess, it is a different question. And, as mentioned, if he'd come through in today's climate he'd be even better. Maybe he'd have the same all round game that Savea has.

 

[welshglory]

Lomu's genetics were unreal. Made for collision sports. If he had grown up in the states he probably would have been an NFL star. 6'5 and 120kg of pure fast twitch muscle and bulk.

Think about how he would be in the modern era with the sports science and technology available. You could argue that he would be even more physically impressive.

 

[psychic duck]

Agree 100%.

I like Savea and I think he is probably a better all round player, but the comparisons aren't really all that similar. Yes Savea bumps people off, he's a very strong and fast 108kg winger. Lomu was bigger by another 10kgs and 2'' and bumped people off much more regularly. Lomu had some handling skills people forget - the number of times players like Iremia, Kronfeld, Cullen and Alatini etc would benefit from Lomu sucking in three or four defenders to then pass the ball over the top of them to the support player. It also bothers me when people say he wouldn't be as effective as players are used to tackling big wingers now...it's like people forget the people Lomu trampled over who played on for another 10 years. Vickery, Tindall, Catt, Os du Randt etc, etc. He also wasn't without any of the deft skill in terms of kicking although he rarely utilized it. People talk about how it took him a long time to turn, like he was run on rails and defenses had him sussed if you just kicked behind him, however it's extremely overstated. He didn't play a game which revolved around collecting kicks, but to be fair no one kicked high balls to him, and the policy was certainly never to kick the ball back. I remember a game against Argentina when the back line was Umaga, Lomu and Cullen and Grant Nisbett comments as Umaga collected the kick "You don't see the All Blacks kick the ball back very often, but I guess why would you when you have runners like Umaga, Lomu and Cullen". Twenty seconds later Umaga runs the length of the field and offloads for an AB try.



Savea is a very well rounded winger with a lot of power. He's not the kind of freak Lomu was though, he's more like a cross between a Lomu and Howlett. He's got no real flaws to his game and he is a very powerful winger. I love Savea and his try scoring record is very impressive, but I don't think it's likely he'll maintain a 1.00 ratio...I hope he beats Howlett's AB record, or even Ohata's record if he plays for a long enough time at a high standard - but it's a tough ask. As others have mentioned, wingers tend not to last quite as long as other players, particularly All Black wingers. We always produce an abundance of great wing talent with a generally very high scoring ratio, but our most capped winger only has 68 test caps (less than any other position for the ABs).

Nice post nickdnz. It's become fashion just to make out Jonah and talk down on him as merely a big guy who got there early. Forgetting that 1) a dozen of the players he smashed over still thrived long after he was gone, Tindall for instance wasn't getting trampled over by every big guy in the game. 2) the late 90's and early 00's wasn't universally filled with midgets nor is the modern game universally filled with Nadolo's, the averages have gone up but that doesn't mean there were no big players at all back then. How many are there with Lomu's dimensions now? Not many with his pace or skill. 3) claiming that modern players would be better in previous eras works both ways, older players might be better in modern eras with modern systems as well just as Peat says.

Also as you say, AB wingers often end up with stats of like 60 caps and 45 tries. Cullen (even though he was a 15), Wilson, Howlett and Rokocoko all had comparable strike rates at similar stages of their career then finished at like 27 or 28. Rokocoko actually scored 27 tries 5 matches faster than Savea. It seems likely Savea will break the AB record at this stage especially as the ABs play more matches, but then who'd have thought Rokocoko wouldn't have done at the start of 2005? Soon he might get a monster reputation that teams like to gang up on him just to give themselves a medal and say he didn't score as well.

 

[tituslechmakus]

Well guys, it is the same debate I already had about soccer legends on other forums. I find it pretty useless to compare players and their playing level between themselves. I will take an extrem example : how can you compare Brazilian Pele and an actual Messi ? Pele was training twice a week, whereas Messi trains every day ! So if you put them toghether at their peak, of course Messi will be better. But the point is to compare them in their playing time ... And that is another story ! Pele won 3 World cups ... Messi none ! So who's the legend ?
Same for Lomu : is there any team in the World who has a player able to score 4 tries in RWC semi final. Not sure Savea can do it ! Lomu did it (RWC 1/2 in 95' against England) !
So for me he's still the best player ever.

 

[welshglory]

Could Lomu do that against England next year in a world cup semi though? Even kf he was in his prime?

 

[Peat]

Could Lomu do that against England next year in a world cup semi though? Even kf he was in his prime?

I am very happy that I won't have to find out.

To be fair, based on the third test, it's entirely possible that a granny could score four tries against us on the right day...

 

[TRF_heineken]

It's a bit hard for me to do the comparison, as the game has developed a lot more, and there are so many new technicalities to consider especially for Wingers.

Based on their physical attributes, they are both monsters! I just wonder if Lomu were to play now, would he have lost a few more kg's, have a bit more leaner body and maybe even a little bit faster?

If any of you have seen the training that Lomu did when he was playing, it's something not a lot of guy can do. Doing Squats with each leg on a different gym ball while squatting with a bar of weights above your head is something to admire. I don't think Savea has that in him, but I stand corrected.

 

[welshglory]

I'm sure Lomu would be just as good if not better than most wingers today if this was era, but he wouldn't be able to do as many freakish acts

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm sure Lomu would be just as good if not better than most wingers today if this was era, but he wouldn't be able to do as many freakish acts

true, but that is mostly because players in other positions have also changed. you don't many rugby players nowadays built like Mike Catt