Why do Props prefer one side?

[nickdnz]

Great post dullonien. Made me think about the scrum in new ways. Like all that force from the 8 must be coming through the tighthead-hooker channel too. It also appears as if that's why massive locks fit in at 4, so they can use their weight to support their tighthead.

One question to all though... people saying that tightheads anchor and looseheads disrupt, why is it that tightheads seem to do better at winning penalties?

I wouldn't say they necessarly are. Watching the AB vs France game all the penalties were won by Crockett. But again, its easier in many ways for a LH's head to pop out of the scrum without the hooker - and it's also the LH who can get done more for boring in.

I play both sides but prefer loosehead. The main reason I feel people prefer one side over the other is simply that the technique needed for both are just completely different. Sorry if this is exactly what someone else said not thinking straight at the moment.

Also I notice people also saying about the anchoring and the loosehead being the destructive influence, I agree with this in principle but there's a reason a turnover at the scrum is called a tighthead. If your tighthead is able to get a really good strong scrum the other team is ****ed.

I tend to agree with the first part.

While I agree that when you see one scrum dominate the other in terms of one team just getting pushed way back - that's a TH because the ball will usually go under the TH prop in a streight line. When you see a scrum however wheel past the 90 degrees, that's almost always the LH props doing - as in that instance the TH acts more as the pivot to which the LH drives.

 

[RugbyKing]

I have wonder about this since I began to watch rugby. VERY confusing.

I think, personally, the side of the prop is about the hand. Like a right handed man will be a right prop. A left handed man will be a left side of the scrum. Sounds simple yes, but that's exactly what it is. He will use his prefer hand to bind to props facing against him. Just my own opinion, personally.

 

[dullonien]

I tend to disagree that a LH doesn't have to be as good a scrummager.

Certainly, but it's all about balance imo. There's nothing stopping a side picking monster scrummagers in all three front row positions, and big lumps at lock, sacrificing loose play for a monster scrum. Will this result in a success? Maybe, but it could easily result in disaster as well with the front five getting blown away in the loose by a more athletic opposition.

As such, most sides are willing to sacrifice a little scrummaging power on the looshead side in order to have another ball carrier, scavenger, or general workhorse in the loose. The same is true at hooker, with loose play often favoured above scrummaging ability. It's all in an effort to find a balance in the pack between set piece and loose play. Often severely lacking in one of those two elements results in failure.

I also think there's a slightly different emphasis placed on the scrum in the different leagues. For example, the Top14 imo places a big emphasis on scrummaging power, and again imo this is one of the reasons Sheridan has remained first choice at Toulon ahead of Gethin Jenkins. In the Pro12, the emphasis on scrummaging isn't as big, and as such the more athletic looseheads seem to be more evident.

 

[nickdnz]

I have wonder about this since I began to watch rugby. VERY confusing.

I think, personally, the side of the prop is about the hand. Like a right handed man will be a right prop. A left handed man will be a left side of the scrum. Sounds simple yes, but that's exactly what it is. He will use his prefer hand to bind to props facing against him. Just my own opinion, personally.

Unfortunately I don't think there is any correlation between handedness and side of the scrum. I'm right handed and scrum on the left. I'd wager a guess the BG8 is the same and go further to guess most LH props are right handed.

I think - and I'm not meaning to be rude as it applies to most people on the thread - that you'll never really know what being a prop is about or like unless you experience it yourself, and I mean at a reasonably competitive level like 1st XV as a starter, not a few games as a kid. Its really hard to explain what is involved and what you have to consider unless you do it for a couple of years in my honest opinion. I started off as a flanker and then as a lock before I became a TH prop at 15 for the my teams colts side, then I propped for my 1st XV and then back to my colts side at LH with occasional games for my clubs 2nds and 1sts - and the one thing I've realized after 6 years is that the only advice ever worth taking on board to improve your scrummaging, is when it comes from another front rower.

Certainly, but it's all about balance imo. There's nothing stopping a side picking monster scrummagers in all three front row positions, and big lumps at lock, sacrificing loose play for a monster scrum. Will this result in a success? Maybe, but it could easily result in disaster as well with the front five getting blown away in the loose by a more athletic opposition.

As such, most sides are willing to sacrifice a little scrummaging power on the looshead side in order to have another ball carrier, scavenger, or general workhorse in the loose. The same is true at hooker, with loose play often favoured above scrummaging ability. It's all in an effort to find a balance in the pack between set piece and loose play. Often severely lacking in one of those two elements results in failure.

I also think there's a slightly different emphasis placed on the scrum in the different leagues. For example, the Top14 imo places a big emphasis on scrummaging power, and again imo this is one of the reasons Sheridan has remained first choice at Toulon ahead of Gethin Jenkins. In the Pro12, the emphasis on scrummaging isn't as big, and as such the more athletic looseheads seem to be more evident.

I can agree with a lot of this - interestingly Wellington has just signed back John Schwalger, who is a very mobile LH but not the strongest scrummager. Overall however I don't tend to think that TH = strongest scrummager and LH = weaker scrummager - the adjustment is more to do with technique than power in my opinion.

 

[big ginger 8]

Unfortunately I don't think there is any correlation between handedness and side of the scrum. I'm right handed and scrum on the left. I'd wager a guess the BG8 is the same and go further to guess most LH props are right handed.

Sorry to disappoint Nick I actually am left handed...though it has absolutely nothing to do with my scrummaging.


I do think obviously that you do need good technique as a loosehead, I'm definitely more of a technical scrummager, but I do think more than at tighthead there isn't as much need to be an excellent technician. It can be offset that bit more by strength and power. Whereas technique is very nearly the be all and end all for tighthead. Just using Irish levels (of admittedly very different levels) Tony Buckley was monstrously strong but is a woeful scrummager (not aided by his height). The other day at u20's Ireland had a 90kg tighthead who often got the shunt on his 120kg opposite number.

Essentially what I'm saying is it's that bit easier to get away with just a little bit less technique at loosehead but you still need to be a certain level.

 

[TNT88]

I've been out all night, and come home expecting 1 or 2 replies. Instead I get a masterclass of front row knowledge, better than any TV pseudo-expert-analysis could ever give!

So in summary. Playing Tighthead/Loosehead requires vastly different skills, strengths and muscles. So the training must be different, and hence why super rugby teams (for example) would bring on a TH with little experience rather than play two experienced LH props? And those specific differences are that TH's require a strong player that can "anchor" a scrum, also they bind with both arms and distribute weight evenly. While the LH focuses his weight as much as possible towards one shoulder only, hence why you can probably put a wider range of guys there? (ie: a taller or bulkier prop)

Also, switching between the two roles would require a couple of games to fully complete? (even if you were fully trained on both sides)

once again, cheers guys

 

[dullonien]

Overall however I don't tend to think that TH = strongest scrummager and LH = weaker scrummager - the adjustment is more to do with technique than power in my opinion.

Thanks for the information. Of course, as you play at prop, on both sides to boot, you're going to know a hell of a lot more about scrummaging than me, a scrum half! I have made a big effort over the years to get to grips with the intricacies of the scrum, often treating it a little like a physics equation, trying to understand the forces and how they are divided between the pack, but also through watching closely and trying to understand what's happening. Of course, having never played any forward role, let alone in the front row I possibly won't ever understand everything.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just a bit of a technicality, and a fairly pedantic one too...

But props don't require as much power as they do strength to be good scrummagers.
Hence why 20st props don't have the boshing capabilities of people like Manu or Savea.
But they would fairly easily handle them in a tug of war.

As an aside: did anyone catch the Japanese scrum against Wales? Phenomenal technique, almost perfect posture in the couple of scrums I saw. If only they were bigger!

 

[lynam1104]

For me it was down to the side of the scrum I was put on as a kid due to proportions, so I then learn't the way to scrummage and position myself on that side of the scrum (TH). Then when I got older I was moved to LH due to being taller so I had relearn it, frankly after a time I preferred LH (actually i'm a lock but for the sake of the thread )

 

[dasNdanger]

More cushion for the pushin...

Sooo...yer a chubby chaser, eh?

On a serious note, I really appreciate this thread. I had no idea there was this much to the prop position - I just figured they were big dumb blokes thrown into the game for their front row brawn, and not for anything even remotely strategic. I will now take better note of these two positions and the men who fill them. This is what I love about the forum in general - I get insight into the game that I just haven't been able to get elsewhere. Thanks, guys!


das

 

[lynam1104]

Sooo...yer a chubby chaser, eh?

On a serious note, I really appreciate this thread. I had no idea there was this much to the prop position - I just figured they were big dumb blokes thrown into the game for their front row brawn, and not for anything even remotely strategic. I will now take better note of these two positions and the men who fill them. This is what I love about the forum in general - I get insight into the game that I just haven't been able to get elsewhere. Thanks, guys!


das

To me prop is the most technical position ont he pitch the sequences far out weight that of say a winger, backrow, 3nd row, flyhalf might have some claim but thats more about creativity.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To me prop is the most technical position ont he pitch the sequences far out weight that of say a winger, backrow, 3nd row, flyhalf might have some claim but thats more about creativity.

Exactly! Doc Danie Craven had the saying: you first pick your tighthead, then the rest of the team.

Without a proper tighthead, your team will never get first phase front foot ball.

 

[dasNdanger]

As an aside: did anyone catch the Japanese scrum against Wales? Phenomenal technique, almost perfect posture in the couple of scrums I saw. If only they were bigger!

The Japanese are very disciplined and sticklers for perfection. It doesn't surprise me they'd have perfect form in the scrum. Perhaps just like they taught Americans how to build cars, maybe they should teach forwards how to scrummage.

To me prop is the most technical position ont he pitch the sequences far out weight that of say a winger, backrow, 3nd row, flyhalf might have some claim but thats more about creativity.

Yeah, I'm starting to see that now. Rather surprising since the commentators don't really sing the praises of the front row, unless they score and then the guys in the booth usually make a joke out of it. I really need to stop getting my rugby tutoring from the old farts with the microphones.



das

 

[Saintjay]

To me prop is the most technical position ont he pitch the sequences far out weight that of say a winger, backrow, 3nd row, flyhalf might have some claim but thats more about creativity.

I would have said Hooker was the most technical. The have to be solid in the scrum and throw a line out. We have all met the rather solid hooker who can't remember his dogs name let alone calls for front middle or back. Then thinking about it now they dont hook is it more techical than prop I'm not so sure.

 

[nickdnz]

I would have said Hooker was the most technical. The have to be solid in the scrum and throw a line out. We have all met the rather solid hooker who can't remember his dogs name let alone calls for front middle or back. Then thinking about it now they dont hook is it more techical than prop I'm not so sure.

Hookers also tend to have the luxory of not having to lift in lineouts and not remember patterns for the calls. Its also easier in my opinion to scrummage at hooker than either TH or LH - because while you still have to push hard, your not worrying quite as much about keeping the scrum stable. Still - I've only played a handful of game at hooker, and that's only when there are injuries (I'm 6'2'' so a bit tall to be an effective hooker without very tall props)

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Being used last two years as a front row utility player for my hometown club has enabled me to develop skills across the board. Lot of points been mentioned here on what the difference is. Having started out as a Hooker, I find playing at tight head the easiest and also the more enjoyable as I find it a good challenge and quite similar to what is required from a hooker to scrummage. At loosehead I often find it tough to bind and tend to get dragged down via the arm if I don't power the left shoulder out. Playing loosehead for me is awkward, but to play a game I will play there.

All three front row positions require a different skill set. That's why I love playing in the front row.

 

[Peat]

Beware the front row propaganda machine Das. Oh, sure, they're full of their technical variations and difference between sides now, but just wait for the scrum to go backwards and what will you hear?

"The second rows didn't push hard enough"

Sometimes I think its all a big swindle to make them sound more impressive.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Beware the front row propaganda machine Das. Oh, sure, they're full of their technical variations and difference between sides now, but just wait for the scrum to go backwards and what will you hear?

"The second rows didn't push hard enough"

Sometimes I think its all a big swindle to make them sound more impressive.

And they always forget to tell you they're the scrum halves *****es.

 

[-InvIctus-]

And they always forget to tell you they're the scrum halves *****es.

Hahaha !

 

[lynam1104]

Beware the front row propaganda machine Das. Oh, sure, they're full of their technical variations and difference between sides now, but just wait for the scrum to go backwards and what will you hear?

"The second rows didn't push hard enough"

Sometimes I think its all a big swindle to make them sound more impressive.

Shut up pretty boy go back to messing with your hair