A Political Thread pt. 2

[McTallshort]

Exactly, they tried. And I ask again, had they had the capability to try and succeed originally, do you think Israel would exist now?

If Palestine had the ability to wipe out Israel, do you think they would take it out so you think they'd let Israel survive?

On your first point yes they would have but that was over 50 years ago not sure how that relates to now.

I don't know what Palestine would do because it doesn't exist, what I do know and what is actually happening is Israel is trying to wipe out the Palestinians.

 

[ncurd]

Exactly, they tried. And I ask again, had they had the capability to try and succeed originally, do you think Israel would exist now?

If Palestine had the ability to wipe out Israel, do you think they would take it out so you think they'd let Israel survive?

They don't though do they? If anyone who dislikes Israel wanted to wipe them out they clearly havent done so.

Israel tommorow could,
Withdraw completely from Gaza/The West Bank
Assist in completely free and open elections
Keep its border militarised
Recognise Palestine as an Indepedent state
Keep Jerselum but accept its disputed

In return make sure the Palestinian government denounce and assist with any terrorist activities in Israel.

But they arent doing any of that they are litreally the ones trying to have a complete takeover of Palestine.

 

[ncurd]

On your first point yes they would have but that was over 50 years ago not sure how that relates to now.

And what led to the status quo of Western government's propping up Israel to make sure it could defend itself. The issue is post the 90's Israel has not persued a defensive posture.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

On your first point yes they would have but that was over 50 years ago not sure how that relates to now.

I don't know what Palestine would do because it doesn't exist, what I do know and what is actually happening is Israel is trying to wipe out the Palestinians.

That's the point though, in order for a 2 state solution to exist, you can't have the 2 states determined to eradicate each other.

I cannot think of any point since Israel was created in which the Palestinian territories wouldn't have jumped at the opportunity to completely obliterate Israel if they could. That pre-dates the current events but is an ongoing mentality.

If your country was next to another that was ruled by a group who's primary focus is the destruction of your country and had been for over half a century, do you not think that would sour relations in return?

What Israel is doing is completely wrong but let's say they end the way and pull back, all that's going to happen is Hamas will rebuild and try again in the future.

The surrounding Arab states are more than willing to use the Palestinians as pawns, they don't give a damn about them.

At some point the Palestinians also have to recognise that their decades long attempts to see Israel destroyed are part of the problem too, they are so far from an innocent party in this that I can't understand why everything they do and the mentality they hold is ignored. It's not a new mentality.

 

[dirty harry]

Britain is very good at ignoring it's inconvenient history. Tbh it has a lot to answer for.

To be fair, going from owning 25% of the world down to 25% of its own wet damp island is probably punishment enough hahaha

 

[dirty harry]

I agree, though it is important to put things in historical context.

I just find it very interesting that you probably couldn't find one leftist who could tell you a single fact about how Pakistan was created (and how it was really a lot worse than how Israel was created) but they can give you a whole load of "facts" (some true some not) about Israel and how bad it is. It's almost like we hear a lot more about Israel as it involves Jews.

Careful there darling, your sounding like a far right fascist hahaha

 

[dirty harry]

Who said it doesn't have the right to exist? They are the ones denying the Palestinians the right to exist

WTAF?!?!

 

[dirty harry]

Amazing now that reality is bent and Isreal have become viewed as invading monsters in peaceful States who were being diplomatic and loving toward them hahahaha

Isreal pulling out and installing a functioning government and rebuilding Palestine into a 2nd state more than likely just offers the foundation for Hamas to go into hyper hospital building mode.

 

[Saintjay]

On your first point yes they would have but that was over 50 years ago not sure how that relates to now.

I don't know what Palestine would do because it doesn't exist, what I do know and what is actually happening is Israel is trying to wipe out the Palestinians.

People have long memories to let history define there cause.

Look at Ireland, I've met people who get upset over the potato famine and used it as an example as to why all Brits are ********. On the other side you have people all for the Battle of Orange

Some people's reluctance to move on from history is part of the problem

 

[Welsh Exile]

No one blames Israel for the October attacks so ******* grow up. What people do object to is the current invasion and distuction of Gaza, the systematic starvation of its population while at the same time illegally grabbing land in the West Bank.

Plenty of people blamed Israel for October 7th. ****, there were even people celebrating it. Then you had a whole load of people like Francesca Albanese from the UN saying October 7th was justified resistance and you have to understand why Hamas did it. October 7th wasn’t the start of the conflict etc etc. Which is really saying it was Israel's fault.

 

[McTallshort]

That's the point though, in order for a 2 state solution to exist, you can't have the 2 states determined to eradicate each other.

I cannot think of any point since Israel was created in which the Palestinian territories wouldn't have jumped at the opportunity to completely obliterate Israel if they could. That pre-dates the current events but is an ongoing mentality.

If your country was next to another that was ruled by a group who's primary focus is the destruction of your country and had been for over half a century, do you not think that would sour relations in return?

What Israel is doing is completely wrong but let's say they end the way and pull back, all that's going to happen is Hamas will rebuild and try again in the future.

The surrounding Arab states are more than willing to use the Palestinians as pawns, they don't give a damn about them.

At some point the Palestinians also have to recognise that their decades long attempts to see Israel destroyed are part of the problem too, they are so far from an innocent party in this that I can't understand why everything they do and the mentality they hold is ignored. It's not a new mentality.

What Palestinian territories and again you keep saying all the Palestinians want to see Israel wiped off the map/destroyed. That's like saying all Catholics in Northern Ireland want to see the British state destroyed just because the IRA wanted it to be. I would also counter that by adding that for every Palestinian who wants the destruction of Israel there is an Israeli who doesn't believe the Palestinians have any right to live in Israel and that all the land belongs to them.

But all this is irrelevant, the fact is this current situation has nothing to do with Palestine, Israel, two state anything. This is about keeping a criminal away from the courts and a right wing nationalist government in power.

 

[McTallshort]

People have long memories to let history define there cause.

Look at Ireland, I've met people who get upset over the potato famine and used it as an example as to why all Brits are ********. On the other side you have people all for the Battle of Orange

Some people's reluctance to move on from history is part of the problem

Not sure I get the relevance. The states of Jorden and Egypt don't hold marches and protests about getting their arses kicked in the wars with Israel. Jorden is actually economically very reliant on trade with Israel.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Careful there darling, your sounding like a far right fascist hahaha

Only on the weekends.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

What Palestinian territories and again you keep saying all the Palestinians want to see Israel wiped off the map/destroyed. That's like saying all Catholics in Northern Ireland want to see the British state destroyed just because the IRA wanted it to be. I would also counter that by adding that for every Palestinian who wants the destruction of Israel there is an Israeli who doesn't believe the Palestinians have any right to live in Israel and that all the land belongs to them.

But all this is irrelevant, the fact is this current situation has nothing to do with Palestine, Israel, two state anything. This is about keeping a criminal away from the courts and a right wing nationalist government in power.

No actually I never say all Palestinians want that, you do. I say Palestinians without the qualifier or I say the Palestine nation, in the same way you say Israel wants to carry out genocide. Should I demand you qualify that every time, or else I'll assume you mean all Israelis?

I'm well aware there are Isrealis who feel the same about Palestine, which is why I was careful to say a 2 state solution can't work if they want to eradicate each other, I didn't lay the blame on one side.

The IRA didn't want the British state destroyed, they wanted Irish sovereignty. Hamas don't want Palestinian sovereignty, they want the destruction of Israel. The IRAs methods at times were already very different to Hamas, the level of similarity is low. There was a point to be discussed potentially with the IRA as the good Friday agreement showed. What is there to be discussed with Hamas? They revel in death regardless of it it's Israeli or Palestinian.

It's extremely relevant. You cannot brush aside all the context. We can simultaneously state Israel are carrying out genocide, that netanyahu is a criminal and war criminal who should be locked up and that Israel are intentionally fanning the flames in Palestine whilst also admitting the Palestinians in general have sought pretty much non-stop to do exactly the same to Israel for it's entire existence and have been stopped due to a lack of capability, not a lack of will.

 

[McTallshort]

It's extremely relevant. You cannot brush aside all the context. We can simultaneously state Israel are carrying out genocide, that netanyahu is a criminal and war criminal who should be locked up and that Israel are intentionally fanning the flames in Palestine whilst also admitting the Palestinians in general have sought pretty much non-stop to do exactly the same to Israel for it's entire existence and have been stopped due to a lack of capability, not a lack of will.

You can if the context is being used as a feeble justification or distraction for what is really happening. It's like when people talk about NATO being responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's just noise so people don't actually look at what is causing the continuing war in Gaza and that isn't Israel's right to exist or a two state solution or what a Palestinian state (that hasn't existed since 1948) would do if the situation was reverse etc etc.

This is a land grab by a far right expansionist Government who are driven by the ideology that they have the right to a land that they don't own and are quite happy to commit genocide to meet that end. They are also being lead by a man who is a war criminal and is happy to go down this destructive path if it keeps him out of trouble. That's it. If it was any other country no one on here would be doing mental gymnastics to try and justify what is happening.

Also you are wrong about the PIRA, you don't try and wipe a government out of you don't want to see a state fail.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You can if the context is being used as a feeble justification or distraction for what is really happening. It's like when people talk about NATO being responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's just noise so people don't actually look at what is causing the continuing war in Gaza and that isn't Israel's right to exist or a two state solution or what a Palestinian state (that hasn't existed since 1948) would do if the situation was reverse etc etc.

This is a land grab by a far right expansionist Government who are driven by the ideology that they have the right to a land that they don't own and are quite happy to commit genocide to meet that end. They are also being lead by a man who is a war criminal and is happy to go down this destructive path if it keeps him out of trouble. That's it. If it was any other country no one on here would be doing mental gymnastics to try and justify what is happening.

Also you are wrong about the PIRA, you don't try and wipe a government out of you don't want to see a state fail.

and as I say, you have a whole load of people doing mental gymnastics for Hamas, denying mass rape on October 7th and stuff like that coz it doesn't fit their narrative of justified resistance. It's happening on all sides.

 

[dirty harry]

You can if the context is being used as a feeble justification or distraction for what is really happening. It's like when people talk about NATO being responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's just noise so people don't actually look at what is causing the continuing war in Gaza and that isn't Israel's right to exist or a two state solution or what a Palestinian state (that hasn't existed since 1948) would do if the situation was reverse etc etc.

This is a land grab by a far right expansionist Government who are driven by the ideology that they have the right to a land that they don't own and are quite happy to commit genocide to meet that end. They are also being lead by a man who is a war criminal and is happy to go down this destructive path if it keeps him out of trouble. That's it. If it was any other country no one on here would be doing mental gymnastics to try and justify what is happening.

Also you are wrong about the PIRA, you don't try and wipe a government out of you don't want to see a state fail.

Why do you feel the need to sensationalise every half discussion into 'those whondisagree with me are far right nazis'.

I havnt seen one person claim NATO was responsible for Russias invasion, and I'm yet to see you hold Hamas to the same standard as Isreal.

Nothing is black and white, stop reading sources that convince you anything is!

 

[McTallshort]

and as I say, you have a whole load of people doing mental gymnastics for Hamas, denying mass rape on October 7th and stuff like that coz it doesn't fit their narrative of justified resistance. It's happening on all sides.

Yeah deflection. Some people probably do deny it but the situation is as I have said. Far right expansionist Government lead by a criminal is seizing land that isn't theirs and committing genocide to achieve that goal.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You can if the context is being used as a feeble justification or distraction for what is really happening. It's like when people talk about NATO being responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's just noise so people don't actually look at what is causing the continuing war in Gaza and that isn't Israel's right to exist or a two state solution or what a Palestinian state (that hasn't existed since 1948) would do if the situation was reverse etc etc.

This is a land grab by a far right expansionist Government who are driven by the ideology that they have the right to a land that they don't own and are quite happy to commit genocide to meet that end. They are also being lead by a man who is a war criminal and is happy to go down this destructive path if it keeps him out of trouble. That's it. If it was any other country no one on here would be doing mental gymnastics to try and justify what is happening.

Also you are wrong about the PIRA, you don't try and wipe a government out of you don't want to see a state fail.

It's not a distraction when anyone tries to act like Palestine are a purely innocent party in an this and that we can just simply stop the war and say a 2 state solution will work, it won't with the attitudes that exist in Palestine and Israel.

It's nothing like people talking about NATO being responsible for the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine is not in NATO and NATO didn't do anything. Hamas and Palestine most definitely DID do something. This whole thing was kicked off by Hamas remember? If you want to use earlier Israeli actions to explain why Hamas did what they did then you accept looking at the full context is important.

Yes it's a land grab, I've never said otherwise. Isreals actions are too be condemned, I've also never said otherwise to that, or that this is ethic cleansing, genocide, that Netanyahu is a criminal, that Israel have kept fanning the flames with their settlements etc. If you want to limit your view purely to what is happening right at this very moment then yes, Israel are the worse party. The issue comes in how anyone goes about fixing it. If they simply sign a peace deal and go back to his things were a few years ago then this WILL all happen again.

Wanting to remove a government is not the same as wanting to see a state fail. If that's what the IRA wanted, why did they disband? Why did the good Friday agreement happen? The destruction of Britain and it's people was not the aim of the IRA.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's not a distraction when anyone tries to act like Palestine are a purely innocent party in an this and that we can just simply stop the war and say a 2 state solution will work, it won't with the attitudes that exist in Palestine and Israel.

It's nothing like people talking about NATO being responsible for the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine is not in NATO and NATO didn't do anything. Hamas and Palestine most definitely DID do something. This whole thing was kicked off by Hamas remember? If you want to use earlier Israeli actions to explain why Hamas did what they did then you accept looking at the full context is important.

Yes it's a land grab, I've never said otherwise. Isreals actions are too be condemned, I've also never said otherwise to that, or that this is ethic cleansing, genocide, that Netanyahu is a criminal, that Israel have kept fanning the flames with their settlements etc. If you want to limit your view purely to what is happening right at this very moment then yes, Israel are the worse party. The issue comes in how anyone goes about fixing it. If they simply sign a peace deal and go back to his things were a few years ago then this WILL all happen again.

Wanting to remove a government is not the same as wanting to see a state fail. If that's what the IRA wanted, why did they disband? Why did the good Friday agreement happen? The destruction of Britain and it's people was not the aim of the IRA.

Apparently according to polls Hamas would win a landslide in the west bank if elections were held tomorrow which is problematic. I imagine most Israelis have shifted right as well.