Springboks bring back the Zulu dance!

[alexrugby]

Go John Smit!You can do it!

Funny

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The English would be:

or

Kit changes might take time though...

 

[pieter1979]

Look at that.It just has to be respected!

 

[User1245]

There was a Johnny Clegg song that was played a few years back when the Boks were running on. Loved it. Gave me goosebumps everytime.

EDIT: Found it

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Ireland's pre match challenge will be like this

 

[Shaggy]

If the South Africans continued with the Zulu dance since 1929 then most of the people also would have been able to do some sort zulu dance too cause they would have seen it on tv every time the boks played.You are right though,the Boks should have continued with the 1929 war dance,now it would seem a little odd,but tell me something as a Kiwi if you don't mind.The white NZ boys are doing the Haka with the Maori (please forgive my spelling).Have the white people in NZ adopted some Maori traditions that would justify them doing the war dance with the Maori's?It would be interesting to know and if so,what exactly?If the white boys back in the day...way back in the day were part of Maori war groups if I can call it that then by all means but if not then there is no reason why the Boks can't pick up their old Zulu war dance also as part of being South African,living with Zulus where many whites can speak their language.We live with the Africans day in and day out.Our cultures are different believe you me but connected cause we are in the same baot.Also they support the Boks.

If you can update me on that one I would be happy,it would be interesting to know more about the Haka and the Maori's and NZ rugby.

Well being a Pakeka (White New Zealander/New Zealander of European decent) I will try give an opinion ... as I've mentioned in other postings, the Haka actually has been performed by the All Blacks longer than National Anthems have been sung at international matches, with the Wales being the first side to sing a national anthem in 1905, in response to the All Blacks Haka.

It's so embedded in NZ sports culture that just about all national sports teams perform the Haka, regardless of the sports code they play, and just about all New Zealand Secondary schools having their own Haka, so, as (NickNZ I think) said, most of us know some of a Haka, particularly if we played rugby in our youth.

As these Hakas are written by and performed after consultation with Maori, I think that most New Zealanders respect the Haka, know it's special, and a privileged to perform, and therefore feel comfortable performing the Haka as a challenge in sporting events.

I don't think Pakeha's would perform a Haka in general, when not in a sporting environment.

As for the Zulu war dance, if the Springboks chose to do it, or get a group to do it, I don't see why anyone would have a problem, providing it was done in consultation with the Zulus and done in respect.

On a lighter note, Steve-O, I have to agree,I like Johnny Clegg's music and it does send shiver down the spine in a sporting environment ... as for the morris dancers, the Irish suggestions, John Williamson singing "Waltzing Matilda" ... please stop, or Canada will wheel out Michael Buble again

 

[nickdnz]

If the South Africans continued with the Zulu dance since 1929 then most of the people also would have been able to do some sort zulu dance too cause they would have seen it on tv every time the boks played.You are right though,the Boks should have continued with the 1929 war dance,now it would seem a little odd,but tell me something as a Kiwi if you don't mind.The white NZ boys are doing the Haka with the Maori (please forgive my spelling).Have the white people in NZ adopted some Maori traditions that would justify them doing the war dance with the Maori's?It would be interesting to know and if so,what exactly?If the white boys back in the day...way back in the day were part of Maori war groups if I can call it that then by all means but if not then there is no reason why the Boks can't pick up their old Zulu war dance also as part of being South African,living with Zulus where many whites can speak their language.We live with the Africans day in and day out.Our cultures are different believe you me but connected cause we are in the same baot.Also they support the Boks.

If you can update me on that one I would be happy,it would be interesting to know more about the Haka and the Maori's and NZ rugby.

I think Shaggy responded to that well. Just a few other points to add.

A very large percentage of New Zealand have some Maori heritage, whether they regard themselves as Maori or not. In rugby, the percentage of people with Maori decent is even higher. Players like Cory Jane and Robbie Robinson, while not looking Maori, do in fact have maori ancestory. I do disagree with Shaggy's comment on outside of rugby matches, pukeha's wouldn't do the haka. I've noticed that a lot of white kiwi's do the haka over seas, as it has become a well established icon of New Zealand, and it's a part of New Zealand culture I think a majority of people Pukeha or Maori, are proud of.

 

[pieter1979]

WoW!

That was some great insight from a Kiwi point of view.Did not know that Wales was the first team to sing the national anthem.Just as the rest of the world followed that move maybe they can also follow with a bit of a pre match history ritual.No Zulu dance or any other ritual will ever quite match up to the Haka but it would be nice to see other rugby nations challenge it of sorts a with a bit of their history.

The Haka is great.Love watching it every time!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Only way i'd be happy with a Zulu war dance would be if their was a zulu in the starting XV. Only player that I could see crack it at the moment is Lwazi Mvovo on the wing. Actually, I'd realy like to see him there along with Basson on the EoYT.

 

[Sam Owen]

Well you dont want Bakkies Botha and Schalk Burger doing the Zulu war dance, they'll kill someone lol.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

There was an interesting article in 'The Rugby Paper' about this topic, Nick Cain (a brillaint rugby journalist formerly of the Sunday Times) gives an interesting insight into the why the Haka should be left alone but also why others should be entitled to a reply. The article is a brilliant read. He is highly critical of Mike Miller CEO of the IRB about the fine that Australia women received in their response to the Haka in the Women's World Cup. Cain then goes on to mention that the IRB have helped what they deem to 'preserve' the Haka in the 2011 World Cup by ensuring that all sides facing the Haka must remain still and stand 10 meters in their own half.
I am also going to quote Cain on something he mentions in this article,

'The All Blacks haka in its modern form is barely more than 20 years old, and was re-instated as a coherent war dance, rather than a shambling knees-up, under the captaincy of Wayne Shelford, who is a proud Maori. Irrespective, it is hardly a long-established teadition in its current form, and furthermore it is still only preformed outside of New Zealand at the invitation of a host union.'

Cain then goes onto why teams should be entitled to reply to the Haka when they are the hosts, citing the Wales incident from a few years ago when Wales wanted to respond to the Haka through the national anthem ... something that Wales did first when they wanted to respond to the Haka as mentioned above. For me the fact that the toys came out of the pram from the All Blacks management about this showed how much they respect and felt that the Welsh national anthem would help give Wales a psychological boost. However Cain does say that the actions of Willie Anderson, Richard Cockerill and Norm Hewitt are not the right way to respond to the Haka and that the Haka should be respected but host nations should be entitled to a reply and I agree.

Cain adds that the Haka should be given its freedom but opposition teams also and what Miller has done is stupid to a degree. Cain suggests that teams could do a warm up or go for a run whilst the Haka is preformed ... although I don't think this would be the best thing to do. I still reckon facing the Haka gives as much boost to the All Blacks as it would do to its opponents.



Arguably for me the best response to the Haka, I remember being in the stadium and the buzz that occurred was magnificent.

 

[Sam Owen]

The Wallabies did a warm up once while the All Blacks did their haka. After that the Wallabies got pummelled. Ever since then the Wallabies use the haka to hype themselves up as well, by standing there and taking it in.

 

[Charles]

Arguably for me the best response to the Haka, I remember being in the stadium and the buzz that occurred was magnificent.

I liked this one too

 

[ranger]

There was an interesting article in 'The Rugby Paper' about this topic, Nick Cain (a brillaint rugby journalist formerly of the Sunday Times) gives an interesting insight into the why the Haka should be left alone but also why others should be entitled to a reply. The article is a brilliant read. He is highly critical of Mike Miller CEO of the IRB about the fine that Australia women received in their response to the Haka in the Women's World Cup. Cain then goes on to mention that the IRB have helped what they deem to 'preserve' the Haka in the 2011 World Cup by ensuring that all sides facing the Haka must remain still and stand 10 meters in their own half.
I am also going to quote Cain on something he mentions in this article,



Cain then goes onto why teams should be entitled to reply to the Haka when they are the hosts, citing the Wales incident from a few years ago when Wales wanted to respond to the Haka through the national anthem ... something that Wales did first when they wanted to respond to the Haka as mentioned above. For me the fact that the toys came out of the pram from the All Blacks management about this showed how much they respect and felt that the Welsh national anthem would help give Wales a psychological boost. However Cain does say that the actions of Willie Anderson, Richard Cockerill and Norm Hewitt are not the right way to respond to the Haka and that the Haka should be respected but host nations should be entitled to a reply and I agree.

Cain adds that the Haka should be given its freedom but opposition teams also and what Miller has done is stupid to a degree. Cain suggests that teams could do a warm up or go for a run whilst the Haka is preformed ... although I don't think this would be the best thing to do. I still reckon facing the Haka gives as much boost to the All Blacks as it would do to its opponents.



Arguably for me the best response to the Haka, I remember being in the stadium and the buzz that occurred was magnificent.

The 10 metres within your own half rule isn't something the IRB has conjured out of nowhere to "preserve" the haka..
In New Zealand pretty much every schools 1st XV has their own haka, and pretty much every game begins with each team performing their haka against each other. The rule we have always been told as long as i can remember is that you aren't allowed to cross your own 10 metre line, if a team does cross over, then the game starts with a penalty to the opposing team. I have even seen guys get yellow carded before the kickoff.
I had always just assumed that this was in the IRB rules somewhere but apparently it isn't, and to be fair in 90% of the games played around the world pre match protocol isn't a huge issue. Now with more haka related incidents cropping up the IRB must have had a look at how the NZRU maintains order and decided to put that in place. It's not really pandering to NZ rugby as much as it comes across, it's just the IRB using common sense.

As for doing your warm up while the haka is on? this Cain fellow obviously doesn't follow SH rugby too closely. There was a very famous game in 1996 where the Wallabies decided to run their warm up instead of lining up for the haka. Even though it was a rainy and windy day the All Blacks fired out of the blocks wanting blood and handed the Australians their worst ever defeat 43-6. I personally don't think that the haka gives them any advantage at all, but on that day by virtue of the Wallabies carrying on like that it did.
Also, the Welsh teams' stare down tactic just lead to them losing by 20 points without registering a try. Cockerills famous challenge preceded a 25-8 thrashing. Willie Anderson's efforts resulted in a 23-6 loss. There is a pattern emerging here..
The only way the All Blacks gain a psychological advantage is by the opposition stressing over it, concocting tactics of how to handle it and by their media writing articles about the best course of action.. When a team is too busy thinking about how to take on the prematch dance, then they are in trouble. Just look at the teams that have beaten the All Blacks over the years, the best approach is just to lineup, get it over with and then concentrate on playing rugby.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I remember watching both of those (particularly the French one though) on TV and remember the intensity of the two,
People were talking about the French one in sixth form the next day, almost as much as the match itself

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The 10 metres within your own half rule isn't something the IRB has conjured out of nowhere to "preserve" the haka..
In New Zealand pretty much every schools 1st XV has their own haka, and pretty much every game begins with each team performing their haka against each other. The rule we have always been told as long as i can remember is that you aren't allowed to cross your own 10 metre line, if a team does cross over, then the game starts with a penalty to the opposing team. I have even seen guys get yellow carded before the kickoff.
I had always just assumed that this was in the IRB rules somewhere but apparently it isn't, and to be fair in 90% of the games played around the world pre match protocol isn't a huge issue. Now with more haka related incidents cropping up the IRB must have had a look at how the NZRU maintains order and decided to put that in place. It's not really pandering to NZ rugby as much as it comes across, it's just the IRB using common sense.

As for doing your warm up while the haka is on? this Cain fellow obviously doesn't follow SH rugby too closely. There was a very famous game in 1996 where the Wallabies decided to run their warm up instead of lining up for the haka. Even though it was a rainy and windy day the All Blacks fired out of the blocks wanting blood and handed the Australians their worst ever defeat 43-6. I personally don't think that the haka gives them any advantage at all, but on that day by virtue of the Wallabies carrying on like that it did.
Also, the Welsh teams' stare down tactic just lead to them losing by 20 points without registering a try. Cockerills famous challenge preceded a 25-8 thrashing. Willie Anderson's efforts resulted in a 23-6 loss. There is a pattern emerging here..
The only way the All Blacks gain a psychological advantage is by the opposition stressing over it, concocting tactics of how to handle it and by their media writing articles about the best course of action.. When a team is too busy thinking about how to take on the prematch dance, then they are in trouble. Just look at the teams that have beaten the All Blacks over the years, the best approach is just to lineup, get it over with and then concentrate on playing rugby.

If I remember correctly as I do ... Wales lived with NZ for the first half and second half ... well NZ went up another gear and Wales could not live with them.

Personally host nations should be entitled to the way they want to respond regardless. And on the Miller note, what Cain wanted to make the point of is that Miller wants teams to be still at the 10 meter line, which frankly is not up to Miller to decide how a team lines up to face the Haka!

 

[ranger]

If I remember correctly as I do ... Wales lived with NZ for the first half and second half ... well NZ went up another gear and Wales could not live with them.

Personally host nations should be entitled to the way they want to respond regardless. And on the Miller note, what Cain wanted to make the point of is that Miller wants teams to be still at the 10 meter line, which frankly is not up to Miller to decide how a team lines up to face the Haka!

Even so, its not as if Wales negated the haka's "advantage" or got a psychological advantage of their own. They tried this tactic and they still lost, you're better off putting your energy into the rugby side of things is the moral of the story.

As for having to be still, it seems like a moot point really. I mean your at the 10 metre line and aren't allowed to walk past that, what other movements are you going to make? Was any team really planning on making frantic movements infront of the haka? what possible course of action are they really banning with the be still rule?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Even so, its not as if Wales negated the haka's "advantage" or got a psychological advantage of their own. They tried this tactic and they still lost, you're better off putting your energy into the rugby side of things is the moral of the story.

As for having to be still, it seems like a moot point really. I mean your at the 10 metre line and aren't allowed to walk past that, what other movements are you going to make? Was any team really planning on making frantic movements infront of the haka? what possible course of action are they really banning with the be still rule?

Heavens knows what they will do in the RWC if someone advances ... be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Charles]

Also, the Welsh teams' stare down tactic just lead to them losing by 20 points without registering a try. Cockerills famous challenge preceded a 25-8 thrashing. Willie Anderson's efforts resulted in a 23-6 loss. There is a pattern emerging here..

What about the french one? Look at Roks and Ali Williams, they don't look confident to me...

The only way the All Blacks gain a psychological advantage is by the opposition stressing over it, concocting tactics of how to handle it and by their media writing articles about the best course of action..

If that was true, the AB's wouldn't complain when any team is trying to have their anthem after the Haka.

When a team is too busy thinking about how to take on the prematch dance, then they are in trouble. Just look at the teams that have beaten the All Blacks over the years, the best approach is just to lineup, get it over with and then concentrate on playing rugby.

See the problem is that the other teams don't get to decide how or when to get it over with. They are pretty much expected to endure and wait while the AB are doing their pre match war dance, and now even the right to respond to the challenge is denied. I think that's what irks a lot of people. We just don't get a say about it.

 

[ranger]

What about the french one? Look at Roks and Ali Williams, they don't look confident to me...

Well its not like the Fench really did anything.. they lined up, stood there, had a watch while the All Blacks marched up and did their thing and then the Frogs just got on with the game and won. I really doubt that the haka had anything to do with Joe or Alis perceived confidence.

If that was true, the AB's wouldn't complain when any team is trying to have their anthem after the Haka.

Not necessarily.. there are other factors at work. The Haka is a huge marketing tool for instance, having it as the definitive last action before any game makes it more attractive to advertisers. It's also in their interests to prevent singing as a response to the haka becoming the norm. Its not a huge stretch of the imagination to see fans sparking up during the haka, i remember the english doing it a few years ago. 60,000 people will drown out 22 people, and when you can't hear the haka its not really that impressive and loses its luster a marketing tool.
Also while i don't believe that the haka in itself gives any real advantage, i think that rocking the boat and getting the other team worried can affect the oppositions confidence.. As i said before the teams that really worry about the Haka tend to come off second best, the All Blacks denying the other team the opportunity to reply messes with their heads and could attenuate performance. You can see them trying to pull a similar trick with the Kapa o Pango haka, they have picked which games they perform this version in very carefully. To this date they have never lost a match that they have begun with the Kapa-o-pango haka, its not going to be long before everyone clues on to this and then when they pull it out the other team will already be thinking "Oh god they are pulling out that one, we are so ****** now". Its very sneaky.
I think the main point i want to get across is that the haka itself has no magical powers, its just up to the opposition to decide weather they are going to let it affect them or not.

See the problem is that the other teams don't get to decide how or when to get it over with. They are pretty much expected to endure and wait while the AB are doing their pre match war dance, and now even the right to respond to the challenge is denied. I think that's what irks a lot of people. We just don't get a say about it.

I honestly think that the best way to combat the "advantage" is to not attach so much weight to it. So what if you have to endure and wait while the AB do their pre match war dance. Its only an issue if you make it into one and your own media (NH) isn't helping you out on that front.

They should just treat it in the same way as they treat minute silences when someone dies (i know its a different situation but bear with me). Just stand there adopt the mentality of "this is just something not related to rugby that we do sometimes before games" wait for it to be over and then put it out of your mind and get to playing rugby. Dont worry about "replying" to it, its just a formality.