Aussies 'stealing' NZ players

[nickdnz]

In response to saying that us Aussies are racist I'm sure we have our fair share just like everywhere but mostly I think foreigners misunderstand our humor as racism

I think he was referring South African's who immigrate to Australia, rather than Australian's. Regardless, the girl I'm seeing (or was seeing when she leaves to Perth on Friday ) was South African - left Joberg because they didn't feel safe there. From what I've heard they had drills at their school about what to do if people break into their houses - and she saw someone get shot on her way to school at the age of 7 - so I can't really begrudge anyone leaving under those circumstances. Certainly hasn't given me the impression she's a closet racist, :lol:.

 

[smartcooky]

I think he was referring South African's who immigrate to Australia, rather than Australian's. Regardless, the girl I'm seeing (or was seeing when she leaves to Perth on Friday ) was South African - left Joberg because they didn't feel safe there. From what I've heard they had drills at their school about what to do if people break into their houses - and she saw someone get shot on her way to school at the age of 7 - so I can't really begrudge anyone leaving under those circumstances. Certainly hasn't given me the impression she's a closet racist, :lol:.

One of my neighbours brought his family to New Zealand from Jo'burg primarily because he was sick of living behind a 4m high fence topped with razor wire and having to send his kids to school under armed escort. I've seen the pictures and video to prove it wasn't BS.

The clincher for him was when his wife became a victim of an attempted car-jacking by two armed black youths on a busy city street in broad daylight. A couple of other black men came to her rescue and saw the car-jackers off.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Lol, My racism remarks was also meant in humor.

I can't blame anyone for leaving if they were victims of violent crimes. I hear stories on a daily basis at my office so I completely understand.

It's just that we have a saying in the Afrikanes community about people leaving africa: "Jy sit en piepie". Everyone understands the reason why people leave SA, and we joke about people leaving as a way to deal with it, and not face the harsh reality of the violent crimes so evident in our country. so please take those comments of mine light-heartedly.

I heard that in Australia you can get a hunting license to hunt Aboriginies... Is this true??

 

[Patchey]

Yep. In 2005

That passed me by...

 

[admartian]

@ All NZ'ers posting in this thread.

Once again I humbly apologise. My intention wasn't to be arrogant or ignorant, and I appreciate your defensive stance, just like I would do for the Boks.

My perceptions are based on the media, and what we (I) read in newspapers, websites and blogs, and here of course. I'm here to broaden my views on rugby, and get more educated on things I don't agree with/ don't understand/ misread/ disagree with. This forum won't be such a happy place as we all would think if we all would've agreed on everything.

Perhaps my ignorance struck a chord which it shouldn't have, but I'm glad it did so that I now understand better what the situation is in NZ and specifically the Pacific Islanders debacle.

I must admit that I didn't read the previous threads surrounding this topic, as it must have been here before I joined late in 2010 but only really started participating in 2011.

Once again, I'm sorry

Awesome - and fair enough.

Why would we be angry it is the Aussies he called racists.

:lol:

In response to saying that us Aussies are racist I'm sure we have our fair share just like everywhere but mostly I think foreigners misunderstand our humor as racism

Racist humour is still racist bro. Unless it's by a comedian.

Lol, My racism remarks was also meant in humor.

I can't blame anyone for leaving if they were victims of violent crimes. I hear stories on a daily basis at my office so I completely understand.

It's just that we have a saying in the Afrikanes community about people leaving africa: "Jy sit en piepie". Everyone understands the reason why people leave SA, and we joke about people leaving as a way to deal with it, and not face the harsh reality of the violent crimes so evident in our country. so please take those comments of mine light-heartedly.

I heard that in Australia you can get a hunting license to hunt Aboriginies... Is this true??

Well in early settler days I'm positive (not 100% certain) this was true. Not sure about now.

Though Australia has seemed to shift the focus against Asians and Arabs so who knows what that license looks like now...

 

[FlukeArtist]

Oh chill out flukey that is not the case. No one is either this or that just because you said so.

Every year this debate pops up from someone either new to the forum or some temporary poster. Dont you think it could be how the world actually sees it? and if not why does someone different from outside NZ bring it up from time to time?

You dont seem to have the ability to try and look at it from there view.

Im not trying to excuse it, Im trying to listen to others, Im trying to find out why different posters from outside NZ raise this from time to time. Think about it with an open mind not a tunnelled one.

You're right Sam, I don't.
That comes from knowing what I am talking about I guess, rather than making sweeping statements based solely on skin colour (face facts; no one complains about a white guy playing for NZ, when they are immigrants just like the Polys)

I would think it is more tunelled seeing it from their view than mine.. but hey- that's just my opinion.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Right - sorry all, moving on...

Race stuff aside;

How about that Sean Maitland going to Scotland?!
I notice he wasn't named in the Scotland squad for the NH Autumn Internationals though, but I guess that would be a bit soon

 

[admartian]

Right - sorry all, moving on...

Race stuff aside;

How about that Sean Maitland going to Scotland?!
I notice he wasn't named in the Scotland squad for the NH Autumn Internationals though, but I guess that would be a bit soon

Bad move for the Scots, Aussies would've been all over that action ever since Maitland ever even thought about moving.

Lucky he's not aussie eligible.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Though Australia has seemed to shift the focus against Asians and Arabs so who knows what that license looks like now...

You mean you haven't heard the news? We've been given the go ahead to hunt kiwis now, apparently there's a overpopulation of them here and the government have ordered a cull. I have been setting traps around my house, I have a sign saying "Go Cheat Blacks" and "McCaw is a cheat" or I just leave a half empty Speights bottle out, and when they come closer to investigate, BAM! they don't know what hit them.

 

[FlukeArtist]

You mean you haven't heard the news? We've been given the go ahead to hunt kiwis now, apparently there's a overpopulation of them here and the government have ordered a cull. I have been setting traps around my house, I have a sign saying "Go Cheat Blacks" and "McCaw is a cheat" or I just leave a half empty Speights bottle out, and when they come closer to investigate, BAM! they don't know what hit them.

Boom!

Just close the mines, the GC, and Bondi beach. They'll f*** off back home!

 

[admartian]

You mean you haven't heard the news? We've been given the go ahead to hunt kiwis now, apparently there's a overpopulation of them here and the government have ordered a cull. I have been setting traps around my house, I have a sign saying "Go Cheat Blacks" and "McCaw is a cheat" or I just leave a half empty Speights bottle out, and when they come closer to investigate, BAM! they don't know what hit them.

See guys? Proof that ALL Aussies are racist.

Boom!

Just close the mines, the GC, and Bondi beach. They'll f*** off back home!

Would be the worst thing to happen to Australian sport save for the AFL and cricket, the music and tv/movie industries too; if that happened. :lol:

 

[smartcooky]

You're right Sam, I don't.
That comes from knowing what I am talking about I guess, rather than making sweeping statements based solely on skin colour (face facts; no one complains about a white guy playing for NZ, when they are immigrants just like the Polys)

I would think it is more tunelled seeing it from their view than mine.. but hey- that's just my opinion.

We must always remember that people will comment about these sorts of things (like the the PI poaching myth) from the perspective of how it appears from their end, and based in their experiences where they live.

An English member of another forum (Referees) put it this way....

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here, and have lived here all their lives, call Pakistan "home".
Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"
Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time, wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

(So) we don't get it when a "brown" person, born and bred in NZ, sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.
We find it odd and we become suspicious....[/TEXTAREA]

When I read this post, it really helped me to understand why they perceive what happens with PI players here as poaching. They wouldn't expect a 3rd generation Indian living in England to support England, so they cannot understand why on earth a third generation Samoan living in New Zealand, would want to represent New Zealand.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We must always remember that people will comment about these sorts of things (like the the PI poaching myth) from the perspective of how it appears from their end, and based in their experiences where they live.

An English member of another forum (Referees) put it this way....

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here, and have lived here all their lives, call Pakistan "home".
Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"
Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time, wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

(So) we don't get it when a "brown" person, born and bred in NZ, sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.
We find it odd and we become suspicious....[/TEXTAREA]

When I read this post, it really helped me to understand why they perceive what happens with PI players here as poaching. They wouldn't expect a 3rd generation Indian living in England to support England, so they cannot understand why on earth a third generation Samoan living in New Zealand, would want to represent New Zealand.

Too true. I think what throw us off is when the commentators say they are from Samoan, Tongan or Fijian descent. We immediately think, oh great, just another massive bloke from the islands going to NZ for money. He might be from those descendants, but the commentators (and the Media) fail to mention that he, his parents, and grandparents are all NZ'ers.

I guess it's more of and issue with NZ and the PI nations, as we (non-NZ'ers) see it as that NZ already has such a big pool of players, and if a PI plays for them rather than their home nation, what good comes from trying to make rugby a global game when the assumption is that, the PI will never come up to scratch with the current top nations because their very little pool of players gets pilfered and they have to work around the pilfering just to get a descent matchday 22.

 

[smartcooky]

I guess it's more of and issue with NZ and the PI nations, as we (non-NZ'ers) see it as that NZ already has such a big pool of players....

!47,000 is not really a big pool of players. England, France, Australia, South Africa and Ireland all have bigger pools.

, and if a PI plays for them rather than their home nation, what good comes from trying to make rugby a global game when the assumption is that, the PI will never come up to scratch with the current top nations because their very little pool of players gets pilfered and they have to work around the pilfering just to get a descent matchday 22.

Heineken, you still don't get it. They don't get pilfered to play Test Rugby for the All Blacks or the Wallabies, as we have adequately explained.

They actually get pilfered by NH clubs, who effectively take them out of test rugby for the PI nations for three years out of every four, refusing to release them for the AI or June windows, and only grudgingly releasing them at RWC time. That is how you only ever get results like Tonga beating France, Fiji beating Wales and Samoa giving the mother of all frights to South Africa, at world cup time, and the rest of the time, they get there arses kicked. Not hard to understand how the landscape would change at AI and June tour time of the PI's got to place full squads when there are RWC seedings up for grabs

This is also why the Pacific Nations Championship isn't really Fiji, Tonga Samoa & Japan, its Fiji A, Tonga A, Samoa A & Japan, because many of the top players are in Europe and not released. Meanwhile, PI players ARE released by their NZ & AUS Franchises, NZ Provincial Unions, AUS Shute Shield and AUS Hospital Cup sides.

 

[psychic duck]

Just want to point out that the Pacific nations BENEFIT from New Zealand.

Whilst they may lose a Sivivatu to the All Blacks now and again, they also gain loads of New Zealanders of Pacific descent who go into their sides.

In fact, the majority of the Samoan squad was born in New Zealand, or Samoans who were educated and went through the NZ rugby system.

If the Pacific Island teams just had players that went through their system, then the depth in their squads would be absolutely decimated. So they benefit by adding to their squad by getting players from the New Zealand system who are of Pacific descent.

This is also why the Pacific Nations Championship isn't really Fiji, Tonga Samoa & Japan, its Fiji A, Tonga A, Samoa A & Japan, because many of the top players are in Europe and not released. Meanwhile, PI players ARE released by their NZ & AUS Franchises, NZ Provincial Unions, AUS Shute Shield and AUS Hospital Cup sides.

Whilst the PNC isn't full strength Pacific teams. They have enough first choice players to be considered better than A teams. Look at the Samoa team that played Japan this year.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/161863.html

 

[ZeFrenchy]

My two cents. I was part of the "outside world" who thought NZ wer poachers, etc, but in a previous thread sort of like this one the arguments given by kiwis there (and that are repeated here) made me understand the situation. In part, it relates to my personal experience which has to do with Cooky's post below

We must always remember that people will comment about these sorts of things (like the the PI poaching myth) from the perspective of how it appears from their end, and based in their experiences where they live.

An English member of another forum (Referees) put it this way....

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here, and have lived here all their lives, call Pakistan "home".
Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"
Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time, wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

(So) we don't get it when a "brown" person, born and bred in NZ, sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.
We find it odd and we become suspicious....[/TEXTAREA]

When I read this post, it really helped me to understand why they perceive what happens with PI players here as poaching. They wouldn't expect a 3rd generation Indian living in England to support England, so they cannot understand why on earth a third generation Samoan living in New Zealand, would want to represent New Zealand.

I'd like to relate this post to the situation in France. Our football team is seen abroad as poachers too. I've even been told by people abroad that we poached Zinedine Zidane from Algeria... when he was born and bred in Marseille. That thought, unfortunately, is fed from within the country by nationalists and racists (closet or not) that consider the sons of immigrants to be "less french". I've had that myself, being born from immigrant parents. I didn't grow up speaking french at home, but I feel as french as the next guy, despite what I've heard from some people over my life (I admit, my nickname in this forum has to do with that identity search, and has a lot to do with the fact that, while living abroad, I was seen as "the french guy").
However, some other immigrant families have had the opposite reflex. They don't feel welcome, they feel that the citizens of this country don't want them to join, so they search their identity elsewhere. You will hear french-born citizens whistling and booing the french national anthem and waving Algerian flags, and I certainly don't blame them. The way you describe New Zealand makes me pretty jealous I have to say.
Luckily enough, that feeling doesn't seem to have reached rugby, where we have a mixed, Ivoirien-born captain and no one has ever implied it is nothing else than fully deserved. And when you compare it to what has been heard about Zidane, Vieira or Makélélé (football players), you can only be grateful to rugby for being the way it is.

All that to say that societies behave differently and it's not (exclusively) the fault of the english of indian descent that they don't feel english. And congratulations to the NZers for the way they have shaped their multicultural society.

 

[TRF_heineken]

!47,000 is not really a big pool of players. England, France, Australia, South Africa and Ireland all have bigger pools.

I was referring to NZ's bigger pool towards the PI

Heineken, you still don't get it. They don't get pilfered to play Test Rugby for the All Blacks or the Wallabies, as we have adequately explained.

They actually get pilfered by NH clubs, who effectively take them out of test rugby for the PI nations for three years out of every four, refusing to release them for the AI or June windows, and only grudgingly releasing them at RWC time. That is how you only ever get results like Tonga beating France, Fiji beating Wales and Samoa giving the mother of all frights to South Africa, at world cup time, and the rest of the time, they get there arses kicked. Not hard to understand how the landscape would change at AI and June tour time of the PI's got to place full squads when there are RWC seedings up for grabs

This is also why the Pacific Nations Championship isn't really Fiji, Tonga Samoa & Japan, its Fiji A, Tonga A, Samoa A & Japan, because many of the top players are in Europe and not released. Meanwhile, PI players ARE released by their NZ & AUS Franchises, NZ Provincial Unions, AUS Shute Shield and AUS Hospital Cup sides.

No, I do get it, hence my use of the words "Guess" and "assumption".

My Previous comment was based on the assumptions I had regarding NZ and the PI's BEFORE you guys adequately explained it to me.

And what do they say about Assmuption's? It's the mother of all ****ups...

 

[smartcooky]

Whilst the PNC isn't full strength Pacific teams. They have enough first choice players to be considered better than A teams. Look at the Samoa team that played Japan this year.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/161863.html

Fair enough. It sort of makes the "A and a half" teams

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

I guess it's more of and issue with NZ and the PI nations, as we (non-NZ'ers) see it as that NZ already has such a big pool of players, and if a PI plays for them rather than their home nation, what good comes from trying to make rugby a global game when the assumption is that, the PI will never come up to scratch with the current top nations because their very little pool of players gets pilfered and they have to work around the pilfering just to get a descent matchday 22.

this is what irks me and makes me think that this is the reason some are still trying to get through to you. You use "them" to refer to the all blacks and then you use "home nation" to refer to the island nation.

Can you just get it through your head(no disrespect) that their home nation IS NZ, and that they are proud to represent NZ. Look at Kevin Mealamu and Mills Muliaina 2 of 3 all blacks that have reached 100th caps for the ABs. They are both proud samoans but chose to play for NZ. Have you seen the match from 08 against Samoa? Mealamu lead the haka and four Samoans were in the front line (Kaino, Nonu, Sooialo and Mills) facing off against what you call their "home nation".

FYI all of them are proud Samoans but chose to play for NZ because as much as they are proud to be Samoan they are also proud to be New Zealanders.

 

[nickdnz]

Too true. I think what throw us off is when the commentators say they are from Samoan, Tongan or Fijian descent. We immediately think, oh great, just another massive bloke from the islands going to NZ for money. He might be from those descendants, but the commentators (and the Media) fail to mention that he, his parents, and grandparents are all NZ'ers.

I guess it's more of and issue with NZ and the PI nations, as we (non-NZ'ers) see it as that NZ already has such a big pool of players, and if a PI plays for them rather than their home nation, what good comes from trying to make rugby a global game when the assumption is that, the PI will never come up to scratch with the current top nations because their very little pool of players gets pilfered and they have to work around the pilfering just to get a descent matchday 22.

For the record - I know you get it now.

What I think makes it ever more difficult for people to understand is for example - Keven Mealamu (born in Tokoroa, New Zealand) - will often say he is a proud Samoan. He'll also be a proud New Zealander. There very often a duality of identity and I think that throws many people outside New Zealand. I'm sure Sam could explain it much better than I can.

this is what irks me and makes me think that this is the reason some are still trying to get through to you. You use "them" to refer to the all blacks and then you use "home nation" to refer to the island nation.

Can you just get it through your head(no disrespect) that their home nation IS NZ, and that they are proud to represent NZ. Look at Kevin Mealamu and Mills Muliaina 2 of 3 all blacks that have reached 100th caps for the ABs. They are both proud samoans but chose to play for NZ. Have you seen the match from 08 against Samoa? Mealamu lead the haka and four Samoans were in the front line (Kaino, Nonu, Sooialo and Mills) facing off against what you call their "home nation".

FYI all of them are proud Samoans but chose to play for NZ because as much as they are proud to be Samoan they are also proud to be New Zealanders.

No - I think he DOES understand. I think what a lot of what he is saying is meant through an outside perspective. I don't think he's typing in his own personal voice - but rather the voice of the outside with a presumed misunderstanding of the going on's of NZ - perhaps a view he shared before being enlightened. He's trying to explain what view is shared of NZ by many people - and I think that's fair enough. I've often heard the termed 'poached' in regards to PI players from people within New Zealand who don't understand - so it's a forgiveable mistake really..

Kaino is from American Samoa btw.