Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[McTallshort]

It also seems to me that whenever Hibbard has come off the bench the scrum has become markedly more stable. Obviously not sure how much to read into this as the scrum is a complex beast, but could it be that Hibbard is a more reliable middle-man in the front row? Vunipola seemed to do a lot better at holding his own straight after Hibbard came on. Coincidence? I'm not entirely sure...

Last scrum first test?

 

[cyRil]

Last scrum first test?

When Dan Cole got absolutely done you mean?

 

[McTallshort]

When Dan Cole got absolutely done you mean?

The statment was the scrum is more stable with Hibbard which isnt true. The scrum is a bit of a lottery to be honest and its doesnt really matter who is currently playing in the front row

 

[dullonien]

The statment was the scrum is more stable with Hibbard which isnt true. The scrum is a bit of a lottery to be honest and its doesnt really matter who is currently playing in the front row

I think there's little doubt that our strongest scrummaging front row is Corbisiero-Hibbard-Jones.

 

[McTallshort]

Corbisiero yes, Jones yes, Hibbard debatable.

 

[dullonien]

Corbisiero yes, Jones yes, Hibbard debatable.

No it isn't! Maybe you need to watch more Welsh and Ospreys games. Hibbard is one of the strongest scrummaging hookers in world rugby.

Youngs' strengths are his carrying game in wider channels. He's not a weak scrummager, but I wouldn't call him a strong scrummager by any means.

 

[Aristodemus]

I think there's little doubt that our strongest scrummaging front row is Corbisiero-Hibbard-Jones.

You spelled Jenkins wrong! Also it has to be said that for an effective scrum you need world class locks such as AWJ and Evans

 

[dullonien]

You spelled Jenkins wrong! Also it has to be said that for an effective scrum you need world class locks such as AWJ and Evans

And you disagree?

I'm not saying that Hibbard must start because of his scrummaging, simply replying to Tallshort who questions Hibbard's strength in that area.

AWJ and Evans probably are our strongest scrummaging lock pairing as well.

 

[McTallshort]

Isnt the discussion about scrummaging a pointless one anyway? the whole thing is a lottery take the game on Saturday Mako "gave away" 2 penalties. At least one should have been a penalty for the Lions, of the 3 penalties the Lions "won" all were 50/50 calls. I think if you have an attacking scrum in the oppositions half its always worth making it look a right mess in the hope you get a penalty. I would suggest only free kicks be given for scrum infringments apart from offside but it would be better if they just sorted the BLOODY SCRUM OUT!

 

[dullonien]

Isnt the discussion about scrummaging a pointless one anyway? the whole thing is a lottery take the game on Saturday Mako "gave away" 2 penalties. At least one should have been a penalty for the Lions, of the 3 penalties the Lions "won" all were 50/50 calls. I think if you have an attacking scrum in the oppositions half its always worth making it look a right mess in the hope you get a penalty. I would suggest only free kicks be given for scrum infringments apart from offside but it would be better if they just sorted the BLOODY SCRUM OUT!

Some of the time, yes it's a bit pointless. But scrums can have a huge bearing on a game. Sometimes it depends on the referee, others on the discipline of the props.

I think the second test showed that Vunipola is still a relatively inexperienced scrummager, not surprising given his age. He'll develop that aspect of his game, adding the technical nous to go along with his raw power.

It shouldn't be overlooked for the 3rd test though, because a different ref might referee that aspect of the game differently. I'm sure Rowntree will have a word with him, highlighting Aus' driving before Youngs had a chance to put the ball in on some occasions in the second test.

 

[McTallshort]

Some of the time, yes it's a bit pointless. But scrums can have a huge bearing on a game. Sometimes it depends on the referee, others on the discipline of the props.

I think the second test showed that Vunipola is still a relatively inexperienced scrummager, not surprising given his age. He'll develop that aspect of his game, adding the technical nous to go along with his raw power.

Yes but its wrong that it has such a bearing, it should be a quick way to restart the game not a way to cheat a penalty that could win you the match.

 

[j'nuh]

Yes but its wrong that it has such a bearing, it should be a quick way to restart the game not a way to cheat a penalty that could win you the match.

Maybe not by cheating penalties, but I do think that teams should be rewarded for a good set piece...

 

[McTallshort]

Maybe not by cheating penalties, but I do think that teams should be rewarded for a good set piece...

But thats not what is happening, England V Ireland 2012 was a team with an excellent set piece hammering one without but the last test and increasingly at the top level its all gamesmanship. The refs are completely out of control and teams are grinding it into the oppositions half getting a scrum and trying their luck with a collapse (second penalty for Aus) or driving illegally (first Lions penalty) it is no longer a contest which is why you might as well pick a better ball player than a scrummager because they are all 50/50 calls.

 

[TommyVercetti]

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Jones

4 AWJ
5 Evans

6 SOB
8 Faletau
7 Tipuric

9 Phillips
10 Sexton

12 Tuilagli
13 BOD

11 North
15 1/2Penny
14 Cuthbert

16 Mako V
17 Hibbard
18 Cole
19 Croft
20 Lydiate

21 Murray
22 Farrell
23 Bowe

-

Corbisiero back in to cement the scrum, especially early. Evans for Parling, think he'll command the line-out and offer extra physicality to the pack and breakdown. SOB in for Lydiate who drops to the bench because we need another ball-carrier in the tight. Faletau in for Heaslip because he deserves a start, and with the switch at 6 , we need another tackler. Tipuric the forced change in for Warburton, our best other option at the breakdown and hopefully can link the forwards to the backs. Mako V had bad patches last week but has still impressed me on tour more than Grant, and offers a powerful carrying option in the loose. Croft second-row cover because Parling and Gray are rubbish anyway, and Croft offers more danger around the park.

Phillips back in for Youngs, mainly because of his big game mentality. Wouldn't hesitate to swap him for Murray if he's struggling though. Tuilagi in for JD as we need another ball-carrier in midfield and somebody to let BOD thrive. Cuthbert in for Bowe, who's better, but I just trust Cuthbert to score in a game like this. Farrell on the bench purely because of 10 cover. If a centre gets injured, Bowe to come on and move to 13 or North to move in to the centres.

 

[dullonien]

Yes but its wrong that it has such a bearing, it should be a quick way to restart the game not a way to cheat a penalty that could win you the match.

I don't agree. It is the centrepiece of rugby union. If we wanted just a quick way to restart the game, then we may as well just follow leagues example and remove the competitiveness from the scrum. There is nothing wrong from winning penalties from a strong scrum.

What is wrong, is the general refereeing of the scrum. Too often sides are allowed to get away with slipped binds, popping up, driving far too early, boring-in, etc. etc. And every side is allowed to feed the ball into the second row.

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Jones

4 AWJ
5 Evans

6 SOB
8 Faletau
7 Tipuric

9 Phillips
10 Sexton

12 Tuilagli
13 BOD

11 North
15 1/2Penny
14 Cuthbert

16 Mako V
17 Hibbard
18 Cole
19 Croft
20 Lydiate

21 Murray
22 Farrell
23 Bowe

Agree almost entirely with this. I'd be tempted by Hibbard over Youngs, but there's little in it. It's whether Hibbard's better scrummaging and tight carrying is more important than Youngs' wider carrying and possibly better lineout throwing. With an Ospreys second-row pairing, I'd be tempted to give it to Hibbard, as that combination in the lineouts could prove beneficial.

In the backline, Tuilagi or Roberts? There's a few things to consider here. Tuilagi has performed a little better than Roberts, despite limited gametime, and he's been fit for an extra week. But Roberts is better defensively, more experienced, and with him being a natural 12, one of the centres wouldn't have to play out of position, unlike with Tuilagi where either he or BOD would have to play in an unfamiliar position.

I'm leaning towards Tuilagi, because he's shown that little bit extra, but then I'm not a fan at all of playing players out of position. I'm swaying back and forwards on this one.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't agree. It is the centrepiece of rugby union. If we wanted just a quick way to restart the game, then we may as well just follow leagues example and remove the competitiveness from the scrum. There is nothing wrong from winning penalties from a strong scrum.

What is wrong, is the general refereeing of the scrum. Too often sides are allowed to get away with slipped binds, popping up, driving far too early, boring-in, etc. etc. And every side is allowed to feed the ball into the second row..

The scrum as described in the IRB laws is "a quick way to restart the game" look at some of the old school scrummaging just as competitve but quicker and with a lot less fuss.

 

[dullonien]

The scrum as described in the IRB laws is "a quick way to restart the game" look at some of the old school scrummaging just as competitve but quicker and with a lot less fuss.

Certainly. There's a huge amount wrong with the scrum atm, and I'd prefer that 90% didn't end in a free-kick or penalty. Hopefully the law changes coming in next season will help alleviate a couple of the issues.

The scrum is also meant to be a genuine contest, and I have no problem with a side using their superiority to force penalties.

 

[munstermuffin]

I feel that more could be done with the backs the Lions have available though. For example, with the blistering form he is in, I really think the attacking game plan should bring North onto front foot ball as often as possible. He is one of the few players atm in that squad with the ability to create opportunities out of little or nothing. When Lions get those overlaps on the blindside, stop sending hookers and ball-carrying back rows up there that just go to ground, send George on a run and see what happens. We all know what he's capable of and he's hit form at exactly the right moment, but I do really think he is being under-used.

Basically, I want to see more of this:

The point is, he's our best ball-carrying back atm imo, so he should be coming in off his wing more often (when it's safe to do so of course).

Point I think Duck is making is when Howley was appointed this was basically saying "we're doing it the Welsh way" and Schmidt was overlooked because his way is different.
It's irrelevant of what backs you have if the gameplan isn't sound then the rest won't click and well as Duck pointed out Gatlands record against Aus is awful and well his refusal to alter his game plan may be the downfall of this episode. And well the record shows Aus have him worked out and can handle it. As in if we are honest Aus should have this series put to bed and well if the Aus 12 was on field for more than a min in test 1 it could've been different story and something similar to 2009

 

[Rich Taff]

I'd like to see the AWJ/Evans pairing in the 2nd row to start, with Parling on the bench. Parling has looked great when coming on as a sub, adding immediate intensity (his kick off chase in the first game that he came on was fantastic).

AWJ/Evans would add massive grunt to the scrum, and if the 'big shaggy dog' (hibbard) has his 2 osprey locks to throw to, should improve that as well.

Back row really needs Toby, now that Warbs is out, for his work in the rucks and general form over the entire tour. I'd have sob on the bench to cover 6/7, and if fit, in the centres, Doc and BoD with Manu on the bench to make a real impact coming on vs tired/battered Ozzies.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Big shaggy dog?!
You misspelt fat tranny.
Anyone see the picture of his (knock off) louis vuitton make up bag that Warbs posted on twitter? He's an embarrassment to forwards all over the world :lol: