5 vital players for each country ahead of the world cup?

[goodNumber10]

Fords kicking is now on par with Farrells

Is it?

if Farrell is only selected for his kicking then that makes him redundant.

add in defence if you want more than world class kicking.

 

[Raggs]

the only thing vital George Ford is going to be doing is keeping the number 12'a seat warm on the touchline for 75 minutes before he gets his token jog on whilst Faz moves to 12.



My 5:

01: Ben Youngs - controls the games pace, the tactics will revolve around him.
02: Owen Frazzle! - goal kicking
03: Corbisiero - need scrum dominance in a way I don't see with Marler and Vuni
04: Launchbury - breakdown (standard)
05: Chris Robshaw - The captain has to be one fo the most vital people in the sqaud/team, he will control pretty much everything.

Only Launch in that list is 100% agreement from me. Youngs is useful, but it all depends on form. Farrell I really don't think is vital, not at 10 and certainly not at 12. Corbs hasn't shown dominance once since coming back from his latest injury/weight loss, he got folded by Francis (who was then ripped apart by Wood (Glaws) and Mullan), I see Mako and Marler as our 2 looseheads, and Brookes as the 5th prop.

Robshaw is important, if Hask/Wood can find a rich vein of form we could live without him though, a mostly agreed for me there. My 5 in order of importance:

Cole
Brown
Launch
Ford
Joseph

 

[Kiwi_]

What do you think about Ma'atu? He was having a stormer before he got injured, he was on the bench for the final so I can assume he would be fit..

You mean Matu'u? I'd take Coltman ahead of him tbh, he's a solid back up for SR and a good ITM player, but he will never cut it Internationally.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Is it?

add in defence if you want more than world class kicking.

In the last season Ford's kicking was at the same level as Farrells was the year before (ie before injury). There is little seperating them there. Infact I believe Ford actually surpassed Farrells kicking % by a bit.
Yeah some better defence at the cost of the entire back line become anonomous through the entire game because he cannot get them moving well. Ford offers tons more in attack, equal kicking, better kicking from hand at a slight loss in defence. It's also not that he falls off tackles, he simply doesn't push players back. He has made a fair few try saving tackles too. The little extra in defence from Farrell does not make up for all the other areas Ford beats him. Ford becomes 10 and suddenly Englands attacking game improves dramatically... That can't really be ignored.

Farrell is not a world class kicker, he is a good kicker and that is it, same with Ford. World class is Halfpenny.

My 5 would be:

Ford
Joseph
Launchbury
Cole
Ben Youngs (on his from last 6N)

 

[chippieolamus]

I agree that Ford should be our 10, but just being Devils advocate.

a) I get the impression that Ford tends to miss 'in bunches' - could be wrong, but I feel like he has a tendency to miss multiple kicks in a row, unlike Farrell, who is more consistent.
b) The difference in defensive capabilities is more than you're implying. Ford does slip off tackles I think, whereas Farrell is one of the best defensive 10s in world rugby. This affects the rest of the defensive line as the inside centre subconsciously will come tighter as he's wary of Ford's weakness in the tackle, leaving gaps elsewhere. I suspect this may have been one of the reasons we conceded 100 points in the 2015 6N but only 65 in the 2014 edition.

But I agree with your 5 players.

 

[goodNumber10]

In the last season Ford's kicking was at the same level as Farrells was the year before (ie before injury). There is little seperating them there. Infact I believe Ford actually surpassed Farrells kicking % by a bit.
Yeah some better defence at the cost of the entire back line become anonomous through the entire game because he cannot get them moving well. Ford offers tons more in attack, equal kicking, better kicking from hand at a slight loss in defence. It's also not that he falls off tackles, he simply doesn't push players back. He has made a fair few try saving tackles too. The little extra in defence from Farrell does not make up for all the other areas Ford beats him. Ford becomes 10 and suddenly Englands attacking game improves dramatically... That can't really be ignored.

Farrell is not a world class kicker, he is a good kicker and that is it, same with Ford. World class is Halfpenny.

That's a bit like saying Charlie Hodgson was a better kicker than Johnny Wilkinson - he was on paper in the Aviva, but i know who i'd rather have lining up to kick the winning goal.

All the other stuff has been discussed a billion times, ultimately it's easy to argue away the attacking improvement with better ball, better scrumhalf, better outside centre... we'll have to wait and see, but i'm pretty sure Farrell will be in the starting team.

 

[Wendigo7]

This definitely needs something to add the spice to this.

GN10 has stuck by Farrell so long and I've stuck by Ford.. There should be some kind of bet to this..... ??

Any ideas?

 

[Maverick1987]

I think Farrell will line up at inside centre come the World Cup and tbh I don't really mind that . Farrell isn't going to ruin the attacking pattern anymore than Barritt really and Ford/Farrell have a lot of experience together after the u20s etc

 

[dragos03]

In my opinion, the top 5 for Romania would be:
1. Catalin Fercu (fullback) - few people expect Romania to have a very good back but this guy is just brilliant
2. Mihai Lazar (loosehead prop) - has destroyed any tighthead he's faced in national team matches
3. Mihai Macovei (flanker and captain)
4. Paulica Ion (tighthead prop)
5. Florin Vlaicu (centre/fly half) - the reliable kicker every team needs

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That's a bit like saying Charlie Hodgson was a better kicker than Johnny Wilkinson - he was on paper in the Aviva, but i know who i'd rather have lining up to kick the winning goal.

All the other stuff has been discussed a billion times, ultimately it's easy to argue away the attacking improvement with better ball, better scrumhalf, better outside centre... we'll have to wait and see, but i'm pretty sure Farrell will be in the starting team.

Ford has been making the kicks just as well as Farrell ever has. It's pointless dismissing that out of hand with very good evidence to support that. Wasn't Ford's kicking % during the 6 nations also one of the highest? Ultimately I've never bought the whole "iceman" thing surrounding Farrell, every time it was brought up in a high pressure game, he would miss some crucial kicks.

In the last 6 nations it went like this:

Week 1 - Wales: Con:2/3, Pen 3/4, Total 5/7
Week 2 - Italy: Con 3/4, Pen 3/3, Total 6/7
Week 3 - Ireland: Pen 2/3, Drop 1/1, Total 3/4
Week 4 - Scotland: Con 2/3, Pen 2/3, Total 4/6
Week 5 - France: Con 7/7, Pen 2/3, Total 9/10

So that's 27/34 or 79.4% with his highest % in the decider game. Does not look like his kicks cost us and bearing in mind some of those conversions were off tries he directly set up, I'd say that completely negates the argument from kicking ability. It boils down purely to defence.

 

[goodNumber10]

Two words for you: premiership final.

 

[Raggs]

Farrells defence is good for a 10, but it's not special for a centre. I'd trust Slade more than Farrell to be honest. And Farrells defence isn't always perfect, he often goes very high (as shown in the AP final) and against big opponents this has led to him being put on his arse (Nonu sat him down a few times). I think he perhaps the same thing in his head as Wilko, with the image of the 120kg lock going flying, only Wilko had fantastic technique, so whilst the lock rarely did a somersault, they often went down, Farrell doesn't have that.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Ford has been making the kicks just as well as Farrell ever has. It's pointless dismissing that out of hand with very good evidence to support that. Wasn't Ford's kicking % during the 6 nations also one of the highest? Ultimately I've never bought the whole "iceman" thing surrounding Farrell, every time it was brought up in a high pressure game, he would miss some crucial kicks.

In the last 6 nations it went like this:

Week 1 - Wales: Con:2/3, Pen 3/4, Total 5/7
Week 2 - Italy: Con 3/4, Pen 3/3, Total 6/7
Week 3 - Ireland: Pen 2/3, Drop 1/1, Total 3/4
Week 4 - Scotland: Con 2/3, Pen 2/3, Total 4/6
Week 5 - France: Con 7/7, Pen 2/3, Total 9/10

So that's 27/34 or 79.4% with his highest % in the decider game. Does not look like his kicks cost us and bearing in mind some of those conversions were off tries he directly set up, I'd say that completely negates the argument from kicking ability. It boils down purely to defence.

That analysis is missing quite a lot - you might find this site interesting: http://www.goalkickers.co.za/. TBH even this is missing a bit, given that with only one spot available, it's hard to compare form and the instance of pressure kicks is low enough to mean that variance becomes a factor.

 

[Raggs]

It is missing a lot, especially tough on internationals. But it's got the AP results there, which sees Ford in 3rd place, just a smidgeon behind Hodgeson (highest Englishman). Ford has a higher average difficulty, more kicks and a higher success % than Farrell (ok, Farrell had his injury, but still had 47 kick attempts, enough for analysis).

 

[goodNumber10]

That analysis is missing quite a lot - you might find this site interesting: http://www.goalkickers.co.za/. TBH even this is missing a bit, given that with only one spot available, it's hard to compare form and the instance of pressure kicks is low enough to mean that variance becomes a factor.

it's still a great piece of analysis, but ultimately it boils down to who you have more confidence in - i personally have more confidence in OF's kicking than i do in Fords (though i think Ford is a better kicker from hand).

I'll also point out that Ford (who's cover tackling is meant to be a strong point) was directly at fault for the try that cost England the title, missing a tackle on both Nakataki and Debaty in the same move... but defence doesn't matter right

 

[RedruthRFC]

My confidence in Farrell has waned over the last year to two, so I'm not sure which way I would call it ATM, but I don't think there's a lot in it.

 

[goodNumber10]

that's fair enough. i think we risk dragging this thread into a Faz vs Ford debate, when it should be a thread discussing all teams, so let get back on topic and move the Faz vs Ford guff back to the England world Cup Threads?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

it's still a great piece of analysis, but ultimately it boils down to who you have more confidence in - i personally have more confidence in OF's kicking than i do in Fords (though i think Ford is a better kicker from hand).

I'll also point out that Ford (who's cover tackling is meant to be a strong point) was directly at fault for the try that cost England the title, missing a tackle on both Nakataki and Debaty in the same move... but defence doesn't matter right

To say Ford missing for one try cost England the title is ludicrous, he set up far more tries than he caused. Ford also made try saving tackles throughout the 6N so to pick out one try he let in and say that lost us the 6N is beyond stupid. Did Farrell win us the title in any of his years as 10? Nope? Then what sort of argument are you trying to present? On whos watch did our 30-3 loss to Wales occur? Who was in the driving seat when we missed out in 2014? Who was our 10 when we had one of our lowest number of tries in recent 6N history?

 

[Peat]

That's a bit like saying Charlie Hodgson was a better kicker than Johnny Wilkinson - he was on paper in the Aviva, but i know who i'd rather have lining up to kick the winning goal.

All the other stuff has been discussed a billion times, ultimately it's easy to argue away the attacking improvement with better ball, better scrumhalf, better outside centre... we'll have to wait and see, but i'm pretty sure Farrell will be in the starting team.

Is it really now? That I'd pay good money to see. My recollection would be that Youngs in particular benefited hugely from Ford distracting the fringe defence and his strongest level of understanding with an England fly-half since 2011 but Ford's hand was all over England's attacking performance throughout.

 

[goodNumber10]

To say Ford missing for one try cost England the title is ludicrous, he set up far more tries than he caused. Ford also made try saving tackles throughout the 6N so to pick out one try he let in and say that lost us the 6N is beyond stupid. Did Farrell win us the title in any of his years as 10? Nope? Then what sort of argument are you trying to present? On whos watch did our 30-3 loss to Wales occur? Who was in the driving seat when we missed out in 2014? Who was our 10 when we had one of our lowest number of tries in recent 6N history?

Do we really need to get into this again, in this thread?

I'm beyond stupid but you're putting a 30-3 loss on the shoulders on one man? please....

Fords defence was frequently questioned by people on this forum all through the 6 nations, if you want to ignore that fine - i assure you the coaches won't, there is no point in scoring/creating 4 tries if you are responsible for letting in the opponents 5th.

Ultimately I really, really can't be arsed getting into this again with you, and this thread is going to end up another england argument so lets just drop it here, and see what happens in the autumn.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it really now? That I'd pay good money to see. My recollection would be that Youngs in particular benefited hugely from Ford distracting the fringe defence and his strongest level of understanding with an England fly-half since 2011 but Ford's hand was all over England's attacking performance throughout.

I was being flippant dismissing it in the same way ragerancehr was dismissing defence and goalkicking - i'm not understating Fords influence on the attack, but you also have to look at the arsenal he has around him - an on song youngs, an out and out attacking 13 in joseph. a pack that was finally going forward and providing front football. In the vs Franc egame youngs made one break with ford at first receiver - Fords try the rest were with forwards at 1st receiver.

He had options that Farrell was never afforded - lets look at Farrell on the Lions tour, as an attacking 10 with options around him - different animal completely.

Lets look at the ireland game where the pack were taken to task and Ford had absolutely zero influence on the game.

**I'll also take this moment to point out that i never said Farrell would/should start at 10. Ragerancher took it down that dark, rain sodden alley.

*** Mods can we move this Faz vs Ford talk to the post 6 nations/England world cup thread?