England Team Now That Jones Has Come In?

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

With Eddie Jones in as the new England coach I think we can expect a big change in the team, with a lot of young and in form players finally being given a shot after Lancaster's reign.
Here's the one I'd go with, purely based on form rather than experience (hopefully what Jones will go with).

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley (Don't care what you say about his discipline, best hooker in the country by a long way)
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury (c)
5. Maro Itoje
6. Dave Ewers
7. Jack Clifford
8. Thomas Waldrom
9. Joe Simpson
10. Owen Farrell (I know this is controversial, but I think now is Faz's real time to shine. So far in the premiership Ford and Cips have been out of form, some decision making and kicking especially has been appalling from them both. As it is, Faz is the form 10 and now that his dad's out of the coaching set up hopefully people will shut up about the daddy's boy bull.)
11. Jack Nowell
12. Henry Slade
13. Elliot Daly
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. James Haskell
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Jonathan Joseph

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Hartley best Hooker by a long way?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!

Do you even watch George.

More mobile strong scrum manger hits his darts.

And didn't come with the discipline question mark.

Wouldn't have Waldrom or Clifford starting.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

For the 6N

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley (Only because he is captain)
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Maro Itoje
6. James Haskell
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Joe Simpson
10. Owen Farrell (Does seem to be in decent form. Shame because I do feel he is fundamentally limited)
11. Jack Nowell
12. Manu Tuilagi
13. Elliot Daly
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
15. Anthony Watson

16. Jamie George
17. Nick Auterac
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. ?
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Jonathan Joseph

I may have forgotten some injuries and can't really think of any 6's that stand out. Then again it is late and brain isn't working. I'd sort of like Robshaw at 6 but can't imagine it being nice having him in the team after losing the captaincy.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Gustard in TRP quoted as saying he wants Barritt @12.

Will please the majority I guess.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Hartley best Hooker by a long way?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!

Do you even watch George.

More mobile strong scrum manger hits his darts.

And didn't come with the discipline question mark.

Wouldn't have Waldrom or Clifford starting.

Sorry, maybe saying best hooker by a long way was an over statement but I'd still pick him over George. I'm not trying to take anything away from George, he's a great young player and is the future of the England 2 shirt, but when he's not even the starting hooker for his club I'm not sure his time has come yet.

Agree that there are question marks around Clifford, but I can't see another 7 available. He's a sure starter for the future so I think it's worth getting experience on his side early.

As far as Waldrom is concerned, not picking him would be a crime. I'm not sure of his stats this season, but he's been phenomenal so far, did you see him against Clermont? I think 16 tries last season says it all. IMO Vunipola, Morgan and Easter don't come close on current form.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't care what you say about his discipline, best hooker in the country by a long way

I genuinely cannot understand how people can say this.
It's just....not true!
He's the most....average hooker in the country, for sure. Take away his discipline issues and he won't let you down in any aspect, but he's not going to impress you doing anything either.

Jamie George, for me, has no noticeable weaknesses.
Behind him we have a few that have a few spots to work on but have real talent in other areas (Youngs, Cowan-Dickie, Taylor) - we have enough talent that we don't need that prick in the EPS.



Fraser and Kvesic are so far ahead of Clifford as 7s that they can't even see him on the ordnance survey map's they brought from W H Smiths before they set out.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For the 6N

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley (Only because he is captain)
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Maro Itoje
6. James Haskell
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Joe Simpson
10. Owen Farrell (Does seem to be in decent form. Shame because I do feel he is fundamentally limited)
11. Jack Nowell
12. Manu Tuilagi
13. Elliot Daly
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
15. Anthony Watson

16. Jamie George
17. Nick Auterac
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. ?
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Jonathan Joseph

I may have forgotten some injuries and can't really think of any 6's that stand out. Then again it is late and brain isn't working. I'd sort of like Robshaw at 6 but can't imagine it being nice having him in the team after losing the captaincy.

Really, Auterac? Think he's a pretty good young player but would've thought that Marler, Corbs, Mullan and Waller are all above him on the selection list ATM.
Although I don't dislike him as it seems many do, I wouldn't have Haskell in the starting XV. He's a physical specimen but his hands are dreadful and despite his size, lacks in defence.
Billy V should be nowhere near the 8 shirt. Could hope for the 20 at most. He's ridiculously one-dimensional, offering nothing other than his size, and despite his sheer bulk he still hardly makes ground when he gets the ball. Does well at club level but not an international back-rower.
Although I don't necessarily agree with the back line, I can't complain about it, it would still be a quality attacking force. Still think there are questions about Tuilagi both in terms of fitness and as a 12.

- - - Updated - - -

I genuinely cannot understand how people can say this.
It's just....not true!
He's the most....average hooker in the country, for sure. Take away his discipline issues and he won't let you down in any aspect, but he's not going to impress you doing anything either.

Jamie George, for me, has no noticeable weaknesses.
Behind him we have a few that have a few spots to work on but have real talent in other areas (Youngs, Cowan-Dickie, Taylor) - we have enough talent that we don't need that prick in the EPS.



Fraser and Kvesic are so far ahead of Clifford as 7s that they can't even see him on the ordnance survey map's they brought from W H Smiths before they set out.

I completely agree that George is England's future as far as the 2 shirt is concerned, however, as it is with him not even starting for his club, I can't see him being a starting member of the England team. As it is I'd keep him on the bench, so that he can get some game time without having to face too much pressure. Give him the upcoming 6 Nations on the bench, see how he does, and after that a conclusion can be made.

I'm not going to argue with you about Clifford at 7, maybe move him to the bench over Hask and put Kvesic into 7, but I think Clifford will undoubtedly make his way into the England team before 2019 so we need to give him game time while we can instead of ignoring him for years before putting him into a RWC squad with no experience *cough* Slade *cough*

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Really, Auterac? Think he's a pretty good young player but would've thought that Marler, Corbs, Mullan and Waller are all above him on the selection list ATM.
Although I don't dislike him as it seems many do, I wouldn't have Haskell in the starting XV. He's a physical specimen but his hands are dreadful and despite his size, lacks in defence.
Billy V should be nowhere near the 8 shirt. Could hope for the 20 at most. He's ridiculously one-dimensional, offering nothing other than his size, and despite his sheer bulk he still hardly makes ground when he gets the ball. Does well at club level but not an international back-rower.
Although I don't necessarily agree with the back line, I can't complain about it, it would still be a quality attacking force. Still think there are questions about Tuilagi both in terms of fitness and as a 12.

I'd disagree in a couple of areas. I'm not too aware of Auterac and Tuilagi's just moot in my mind now, but I think you do the back rowers a disservice.

Haskell actually has very decent ball handling, better than or at least comparable to Robshaw in my opinion.

Binny too offers so much more than big carries. His work rate is immense in defence especially and he's surprisingly good over the ball. He's another that will look for the pass- Burrell's try against France in 2014 comes to mind.

 

[Aristodemus]

Vunipola
George
Cole
Launchbury
Itoje
Haskell
Kvesic
Binny
Youngs
Cips
Nowell
Manu (if he can come back in decent form)
JJ
Watson
Brown

Hartley
Mullan
Brookes
Lawes
Ewers
Simpson
Ford
Yarde

Edit: Binny is indeed awesome, I think he is a great international player.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Haskell actually has very decent ball handling, better than or at least comparable to Robshaw in my opinion.

Binny too offers so much more than big carries. His work rate is immense in defence especially and he's surprisingly good over the ball. He's another that will look for the pass- Burrell's try against France in 2014 comes to mind.

Hmmm maybe I was too harsh but I've seen Haskell drop many balls to the point that now when a pass is sent his way I almost expect him to drop it. Again with "Binny" (Haven't heard that name for him before, where's it from?) I may have been too harsh but I don't think he has the diversity to be an international 8. Compare him to Read, Vemeulen, Parisse, Heaslip, Faletau or Manoa and he pales in comparison amongst just about every other international 8 in the world. Dunno, maybe I'm just too cynical but as it is I'd go for Waldrom.

 

[Tony Manx]

For the 6N

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley (Only because he is captain)
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Maro Itoje
6. James Haskell
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Joe Simpson
10. Owen Farrell (Does seem to be in decent form. Shame because I do feel he is fundamentally limited)
11. Jack Nowell
12. Manu Tuilagi
13. Elliot Daly
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
15. Anthony Watson

16. Jamie George
17. Nick Auterac
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. ?
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Jonathan Joseph

I may have forgotten some injuries and can't really think of any 6's that stand out. Then again it is late and brain isn't working. I'd sort of like Robshaw at 6 but can't imagine it being nice having him in the team after losing the captaincy.

You want Tuilagi to start the 6N?

He has not played much continuous competitive rugby in two years and is not even playing in the AP yet with the 6N not much more than 6 weeks!!!

One has to doubt your perspective if this is your plan but it is always possible you have forgotten his injury situation OR you mean the 2017 6N perhaps?

Gustard in TRP quoted as saying he wants Barritt @12.

I like Gustard!!

 

[stus768]

Gustard in TRP quoted as saying he wants Barritt @12.

Will please the majority I guess.

Very excited to see Farrell Barritt tuillagi again.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I completely agree that George is England's future as far as the 2 shirt is concerned, however, as it is with him not even starting for his club, I can't see him being a starting member of the England team. As it is I'd keep him on the bench, so that he can get some game time without having to face too much pressure. Give him the upcoming 6 Nations on the bench, see how he does, and after that a conclusion can be made.

I'm not going to argue with you about Clifford at 7, maybe move him to the bench over Hask and put Kvesic into 7, but I think Clifford will undoubtedly make his way into the England team before 2019 so we need to give him game time while we can instead of ignoring him for years before putting him into a RWC squad with no experience *cough* Slade *cough*

Sarries run rotation on their side though. It's like saying Farrell isn't a starter because Hodgson has started more games this season.
George has 308 mins in the prem this season
Hartley has 211 mins in the prem this season
Webber has 220 mins in the prem this season
Paice has 338 mins in the prem this season
Cowan-Dickie has 237 mins in the prem this season
Taylor has 409 mins in the prem this season
Think those are all the, realistic, options for the EPS. It's not like he's struggling for game time.

I'll probably get lynched for it round here but I view Clifford as a jack of all trades, master of none. Really needs to nail down a position, as he has massive amounts of skill, and potential, but there are better options at 6, 7 and 8, who are all starting there for their clubs.

 

[j'nuh]

Gustard in TRP quoted as saying he wants Barritt @12.

Will please the majority I guess.

Let the Sarries love in begin.

**** everything.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is kinda ironic that we were all ranting that one of the England assistants was an ex-Sarries assistant but were all really happy that the new England HC is an ex-Sarries HC.

 

[Peat]

Gustard in TRP quoted as saying he wants Barritt @12.

Will please the majority I guess.

In fairness, any defence coach is going to say that. It's on the head coach to balance what the defence coach wants and what everyone else wants.

Personally, I'd have asked anyone interviewing for the HC job whether they thought Brad Barritt was an adequate international centre, and told them the interview is over if they say yes. If they really do pick Barritt, either they have Gandalf the Grey as their secret extra coach, or they're set out to play the most boring rugby in the world, or they're deluded.

I'll probably get lynched for it round here but I view Clifford as a jack of all trades, master of none. Really needs to nail down a position, as he has massive amounts of skill, and potential, but there are better options at 6, 7 and 8, who are all starting there for their clubs.

Seems pretty accurate to me. He's a fantastic open-field runner but that alone is not enough. I'd like to see him really work on his breakdown skills.

Is kinda ironic that we were all ranting that one of the England assistants was an ex-Sarries assistant but were all really happy that the new England HC is an ex-Sarries HC.

I'm not sure some people even knew! I didn't until reading the newspaper articles.

If he coaches England like he coaches Sarries, his time here will likely be a disaster and at best will be success but achieved with considerable boredom levels. I personally have considerable reservations about a coaching team that seems to have its keystone in that era of Sarries, back when they were laying the foundations of being the most boring team in the land and Eddie Jones thought they couldn't play rugby.

 

[stus768]

One of the issues I see with Barritt is that we have no similar player to him when he gets injured. He's only useful if he makes the impact on the defensive system that is suggested. But what happens to that system when he's not there?

Plus I don't agree with the whole defence wins games philosophy or that we should be picking players for defence first. No matter what team we put out NZ still scored 3 tries on us pretty much every game for the last few years.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Id make a few suggestions to the teams above.

For me Kieran Brooke's is nailed on tight head. Offers much more in the loose than Cole and a district ice scrummager.

Back row is go

6. Itoje
7. Fraser
8. Binny

An all sarries row I know but it means you can have lauchberry and Attwood at lock and Haskell on the bench.

I personally don't see itoje as a lock, he seems like a 6 to me.

Backs, I don't want any sarries backs unless it's wyles or boosch!

 

[Tony Manx]

Id make a few suggestions to the teams above.

For me Kieran Brooke's is nailed on tight head. Offers much more in the loose than Cole and a district ice scrummager.

Back row is go

6. Itoje
7. Fraser
8. Binny

An all sarries row I know but it means you can have lauchberry and Attwood at lock and Haskell on the bench.

I personally don't see itoje as a lock, he seems like a 6 to me.

Backs, I don't want any sarries backs unless it's wyles or boosch!

I have more than enough said my piece on boosch and thought Wyles is a Yank?!

 

[The Jones Boy]

Barritt is the way backwards.
Tuilagi has rugby in his blood, walking out against a bunch of whiteys is easy for him.

 

[Tony Manx]

Barritt is the way backwards.
Tuilagi has rugby in his blood, walking out against a bunch of whiteys is easy for him.

Better not take what you are on back to NZ, Customs would have a field day...........

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Better not take what you are on back to NZ, Customs would have a field day...........

Prob isn't even from NZ.

One of those people who
Supports NZ Rugby
Supports Germany/Brazil Football
Supports Real Madrid Football (was Chelsea last season and historically Man united)
Supports Patriots NFL
Supports Heat NBA

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I have more than enough said my piece on boosch and thought Wyles is a Yank?!

I was joking

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Waldrom isn't good enough in the tight IMO for international rugby now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Wrong thread

 

[dullonien]

Exciting times to be an England supporter I'd imagine? It's been a dark few months, but with a new coaching unit, a clean slate EPS wise (I think I'm right in thinking that a completely new EPS can be selected post WC?) and an abundance of talent to pick from; it's exciting to see what kinda squad Eddie Jones will select.

From Eddie's previous comments, he seems pretty keen on selecting specialist players in key positions, and I think that will be key to England moving forward. All the lineups above have much better balance in crucial areas such at lock, in the backrow, and in the three quarters. If Eddie get's those selections right, and selects a sensible EPS squad so that his hands aren't tied moving forwards, then I expect a massive improvement from England in the coming years. It may take a little time, with the upcoming 6n maybe a bit early to expect big things; he can't really do a Gatland and select 12/13 players from one club to kick start his tenure, not with the talent spread more thinly between the AP clubs.

 

[Peat]

He's got 10 changes dull - maybe 11, I forget - but that's enough, particularly when he gets to swap out injured players as well. Lancaster's selection wasn't that far off.

I'm possibly a giant pessimist but I'm holding fire on the excitement. For one thing, he's going to 'waste' this 6N working out who the hell he actually wants - then he's got to get the cohesion there - then we're good to go. So maybe a year? And this is assuming Jones gets the selections right. Which he may or may not do. Also assuming he can get the selections right - we've still got the same quality deficit as under Lancaster.

I think I'll go with interesting rather than exciting, and I'll stay with interesting until I can smell the good times just around the corner, rather than a year or two away.

 

[dullonien]

He's got 10 changes dull - maybe 11, I forget - but that's enough, particularly when he gets to swap out injured players as well. Lancaster's selection wasn't that far off.

Ah ok. Thanks for clearing that up Peat.

 

[Canuck]

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley (Don't care what you say about his discipline, best hooker in the country by a long way)
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury (c)
5. Maro Itoje
6. Dave Ewers
7. Jack Clifford
8. Thomas Waldrom
9. Joe Simpson
10. Owen Farrell (I know this is controversial, but I think now is Faz's real time to shine. So far in the premiership Ford and Cips have been out of form, some decision making and kicking especially has been appalling from them both. As it is, Faz is the form 10 and now that his dad's out of the coaching set up hopefully people will shut up about the daddy's boy bull.)
11. Jack Nowell
12. Henry Slade
13. Elliot Daly
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Courtney Lawes
20. James Haskell
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Jonathan Joseph

Some thoughts:

- I know Manu Tuilagi needs to get fit and regain the favor of the selectors but he has the capability of giving England a powerhouse in the midfield. Look at all the 6N teams, they have at least 1 big centre in their starting XV when healthy; Bastereaud for France, Dunbar for Scotland, Henshaw for Ireland, Davies and Roberts for Wales, even Campagnero is almost 100kg for Italy. While I love the playmaking of Daly and Slade, both of them are on the smaller side for international mid fielders. I think they might be better of with one playmaker and one battering ram. Tuilagi has shown in the past that he can be a game changer.

- Mike Brown is definitely proven but on current form Alex Goode can't be too far behind. I'd also love to see Wade make the XV at some point and see what he can do on the test circuit. I wonder if England would ever consider going with a back three of Wade, Nowell and Watson at 15, the attacking ability would be immense.

- I kind of assumed that Robshaw will be the front runner for the 6 jersey for England if he's not selected at 7, but I love what Ewers brings to the table and I was disappointed that he didn't make the WC squad.

- It would be interesting to see Matt Kvesic in the 7 jersey for England, he's more of a classic openside and might give Jones the fetcher he wants.

- Also when will Nathan Hughes be eligible for England? IMO he is the best 8 in the premiership and should be on automatic selection if he decides to play for England.

 

[michaelbolton]

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Jamie George
3. Kieran Brookes
4. Joe Launchbury (C)
5. Dave Attwood
6. James Haskell
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford
11. Anthony Watson
12. Henry Slade With Slade injured, Manu ideally or Barritt as a stop gap if necessary (Cipriani to the bench)
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
15. Mike Brown

16. Jamie George
17. Nick Auterac
18. Henry Thomas
19. Maro Itoje
20. Jack Clifford
21. Joe Simpson
22. Manu Tuilagi
23. Elliot Daly

I tried to keep something like continuity while living things up a little where needed
Harsh on Nowell and Lawes but I am happy that decent players are missing out, notable names to come in soon: Beaumont, Hughes (I prefer Beaumont), O'Connor maybe, Slater? Mullan, Ewers, Hill (Chiefs one), Robson, LCD, Lewington