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[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

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living sacrifice said:
The question he to be asked that if he knew he would bring change to the squad, why he didn’t do that before or during this dismal campaign.

What was the point for example of playing Young’s at all. He won’t make the WC, we need to give Robson or another more experience and yet we still have Young’s loss of game time he didn’t need.

If jones really did think he needed change in the squad (which I think is a lie) then he wasted time and caps over this 6 nations.
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Youngs is perfectly capable age wise of making 2023 world cup, he may not if up and comers overtake him ability wise, but SH isnt a position you need to be young for. He'll be 33 when WC rolls around, and Robson isnt exactly a spring chicken, or to me looked particularly adept either. I'd suggest its more likely Randall is the player Jones will look at, as to me Robsons passing has looked a little too ponderous , though he should be effective in broken field, hence maybe a 10/15 minute cameo off the banch
 
Jakedood said:
Youngs is perfectly capable age wise of making 2023 world cup, he may not if up and comers overtake him ability wise, but SH isnt a position you need to be young for. He'll be 33 when WC rolls around, and Robson isnt exactly a spring chicken, or to me looked particularly adept either. I'd suggest its more likely Randall is the player Jones will look at, as to me Robsons passing has looked a little too ponderous , though he should be effective in broken field, hence maybe a 10/15 minute cameo off the banch
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Don’t let his 1 good game fool you. He’s slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it’s shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We’ll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.
 
living sacrifice said:
Don’t let his 1 good game fool you. He’s slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it’s shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We’ll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.
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And that may be the case, but to say he definitely isnt going would be a bit strong. Actually I think he's looked really good when England are flying and getting quick ball, its the slower game he struggles with and looks ponderous
I agree he should be sniping more, even just to hold the defense a little bit, but SH is a tough position to determine as a lot of it depends on the ball you receive from your pack
Same for OH. Its why Ross Byrne looked great for Leinster and crap for Ireland
 
living sacrifice said:
Don’t let his 1 good game fool you. He’s slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it’s shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We’ll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.
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I’m far from being a Youngs fan but what about his tries against Wales and Ireland? If you want to criticise his passing, game management etc. then fair enough but his sniping game was pretty top tier this tournament.
 
Agree about the Autumn being Jones cut off.

Can Jones turn it around?

Not sure. I think his best chance is with quite a bit of new blood in the team. Not change for change's sake but more because a lot of the players have been listening to him for a very long time now which reduces effectiveness - the same old from the same voice invariably does. I'm not suggesting going mad, experience counts (provided justified by performance) but a fresher group is likely to be more receptive and more adaptable to some of his ideas. He is not going to change Binny, Farrell's or Youngs' engrained habits which opponents are all too familiar with.

The large turnover of assistants is bothering. There's the continuity aspect, but also maybe signals all hasn't been well in the camp. It might be that Jones is simply too intense, we've all heard about the 2 a.m e-mails. Working with people like that is pretty draining. In any job you need to know when to be full throttle and when to back off. Just working harder and demanding more is seldom the answer to solving problems.

On captaincy I'd forget about Itoje. He's a more cerebral version of Farrell - emotional and likely to try too hard to take on the world by himself. No club captaincy experience either - surely that's one mistake we must learn from. Most would say he's one of our marquee / potentially match turning players and captaincy seldom sits comfortably on the shoulders of those. Also poor discipline - as captain that would either be setting a bad example or the responsibility risks neutering him. Launchbury is 100% the obvious call here - you'd never argue with him being in the team, he'll invariably turn in a good 7/10 performance - seldom 10/10 but almost never 5/10 - and he has the Wasps captaincy experience banked. I suspect he'd have the respect of most of the group too. And he's not a Saracen - I've no idea if there is any bad blood from players from other clubs, but there has to be that possibility..........Itoje for example had question marks over image right valuations for salary cap purposes and IIRC came out with something fairly disingenuous like the players were pretty much in dark and shouldn't be blamed. Who knows what they really think of him down Exeter way?

Everything I'm reading suggests that the review basically boils down whether Jones can land the RWC. Our improvement is in our hands, but there's also what the competition are doing. Fra are going flat out to win on their home turf and despite the odd bump in the road are coming along nicely and developing strength. There's little more dangerous beast than a wounded ABs team and they'll be hell bent on regaining their status. The Boks will never be far away and who knows what Aus or Wal will be looking like then.
 
Old Hooker said:
Agree about the Autumn being Jones cut off.

Can Jones turn it around?

Not sure. I think his best chance is with quite a bit of new blood in the team. Not change for change's sake but more because a lot of the players have been listening to him for a very long time now which reduces effectiveness - the same old from the same voice invariably does. I'm not suggesting going mad, experience counts (provided justified by performance) but a fresher group is likely to be more receptive and more adaptable to some of his ideas. He is not going to change Binny, Farrell's or Youngs' engrained habits which opponents are all too familiar with.

The large turnover of assistants is bothering. There's the continuity aspect, but also maybe signals all hasn't been well in the camp. It might be that Jones is simply too intense, we've all heard about the 2 a.m e-mails. Working with people like that is pretty draining. In any job you need to know when to be full throttle and when to back off. Just working harder and demanding more is seldom the answer to solving problems.

On captaincy I'd forget about Itoje. He's a more cerebral version of Farrell - emotional and likely to try too hard to take on the world by himself. No club captaincy experience either - surely that's one mistake we must learn from. Most would say he's one of our marquee / potentially match turning players and captaincy seldom sits comfortably on the shoulders of those. Also poor discipline - as captain that would either be setting a bad example or the responsibility risks neutering him. Launchbury is 100% the obvious call here - you'd never argue with him being in the team, he'll invariably turn in a good 7/10 performance - seldom 10/10 but almost never 5/10 - and he has the Wasps captaincy experience banked. I suspect he'd have the respect of most of the group too. And he's not a Saracen - I've no idea if there is any bad blood from players from other clubs, but there has to be that possibility..........Itoje for example had question marks over image right valuations for salary cap purposes and IIRC came out with something fairly disingenuous like the players were pretty much in dark and shouldn't be blamed. Who knows what they really think of him down Exeter way?

Everything I'm reading suggests that the review basically boils down whether Jones can land the RWC. Our improvement is in our hands, but there's also what the competition are doing. Fra are going flat out to win on their home turf and despite the odd bump in the road are coming along nicely and developing strength. There's little more dangerous beast than a wounded ABs team and they'll be hell bent on regaining their status. The Boks will never be far away and who knows what Aus or Wal will be looking like then.
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Big fan of Launchbury but will he be first choice if say Kruis comes back in to the set up...or if George Martin takes to international rugby as quickly as Tom Curry did for example.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
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Thats a cracking stat. Also highlights how good Henderson has been as a tighthead lock, disrupting rucks and mauls, and hard carries. The rucking part is usually hard to quantify, so I love this. But to affect 2/5 breakdowns like that is insane
 
Geordiefalcon said:
Big fan of Launchbury but will he be first choice if say Kruis comes back in to the set up...or if George Martin takes to international rugby as quickly as Tom Curry did for example.
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Same conundrum we had with Hartley. The best team isn’t necessarily the best 15 players. Leadership is a big part of any team and has been a huge problem since Hartley retired.

I’ve always regarded Kruis as our premier lock and if he’s available / in decent form he plays. Launch is an established international class player who’s still at the peak of his powers and if he’s captain then that’s the 2nd row sorted. That might not be a popular view (scrap that, it definitely won’t) but I think it’s what would serve the team best up to the RWC.
 
Old Hooker said:
Same conundrum we had with Hartley. The best team isn’t necessarily the best 15 players. Leadership is a big part of any team and has been a huge problem since Hartley retired.

I’ve always regarded Kruis as our premier lock and if he’s available / in decent form he plays. Launch is an established international class player who’s still at the peak of his powers and if he’s captain then that’s the 2nd row sorted. That might not be a popular view (scrap that, it definitely won’t) but I think it’s what would serve the team best up to the RWC.
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You would pick a Launchbury/Kruis lock partnership? I really don't think they'd complement each other, and I think you're seriously underestimating Itoje's quality.
 
As there is no relegation this year then Sarries are going to be in the 2nd tier for at least another season.

Should the sarries players now be looking for contracts elsewhere if they want to continue to play for England?
 
Old Hooker said:
Same conundrum we had with Hartley. The best team isn’t necessarily the best 15 players. Leadership is a big part of any team and has been a huge problem since Hartley retired.

I’ve always regarded Kruis as our premier lock and if he’s available / in decent form he plays. Launch is an established international class player who’s still at the peak of his powers and if he’s captain then that’s the 2nd row sorted. That might not be a popular view (scrap that, it definitely won’t) but I think it’s what would serve the team best up to the RWC.
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its a very interesting call....

We know Joe is alot of things...but a lineout guru he probably isnt...so how then would you sort the back row out for an additional lineout jumper?
 
Tallshort said:
As there is no relegation this year then Sarries are going to be in the 2nd tier for at least another season.

Should the sarries players now be looking for contracts elsewhere if they want to continue to play for England?
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Sarries will be promoted have no fear. Even if Ealing or Pirates top the league...there'll be two promoted. They wont let Sarries miss another season
 
Geordiefalcon....

Kruis would be the go to guy and most likely to attack opposition ball. I never used to think too much of Launch in the line out but as time’s gone on I definitely think he’s become more dominant and is safe on his ball. Didn’t Kruis used to be the caller?

Curry and / or Underhill can probably do a couple per match which is pretty much all that’s needed from the back row. As regular readers will know I have always thought Itoje should have concentrated at 6.....and while that ship has unfortunately probably sailed I could definitely see him / Lawes making guest appearances in the back row against selected opposition / in the event of injury.

At 8 I want Dombrandt. Not frequently mistaken for a leaping salmon, but still a line out upgrade on Binny.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56545040
Ignoring the unsurprising vote of confidence from Itoje. I'm worried by the fact that no one knew who was captain against Ireland after Farrell and Ford went off. As people have said, some thought it was Curry, others thought it was Itoje. There is clearly a leadership issue and as others have said, not enough strong leaders to stand up to Farrell and Jones when things are working. You'd have thought they would have at least discussed who would be captain in the event that Farrell is injured, it's rugby. Expecting Farrell to never get injured is laughable. Other big question is whether the likes of Itoje/Curry who people have tipped are strong enough to be part of the leadership team or not. Maybe it's the no dissent culture that Jones has instilled and under another coach they would feel free to question and challenge, but maybe they aren't strong enough to stand up to those in charge when things aren't working.
 
Reiser99 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56545040
Ignoring the unsurprising vote of confidence from Itoje. I'm worried by the fact that no one knew who was captain against Ireland after Farrell and Ford went off. As people have said, some thought it was Curry, others thought it was Itoje. There is clearly a leadership issue and as others have said, not enough strong leaders to stand up to Farrell and Jones when things are working. You'd have thought they would have at least discussed who would be captain in the event that Farrell is injured, it's rugby. Expecting Farrell to never get injured is laughable. Other big question is whether the likes of Itoje/Curry who people have tipped are strong enough to be part of the leadership team or not. Maybe it's the no dissent culture that Jones has instilled and under another coach they would feel free to question and challenge, but maybe they aren't strong enough to stand up to those in charge when things aren't working.
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I think they might have designated the first 3, as in maybe Farrell, Ford, Youngs or BV etc... but all three were off, hence the confusion? Still likely to be sorted out now
 
I find it hard to believe anything the players in the camp say any more. Given we have heard from multiple people in different teams that Jones is a control freak who drives everyone hard and can't handle dissent plus comments from players who have left the camp, it doesn't add up.

According to the players in camp everything is fantastic, all the Sarries players are great there is no problem. Reality is they are putting in some of the worst performances of any England team, players who have left the camp tell a completely contradictory story and Jones has been unable to retain support staff for any length of time. If everything is great in camp, everyone is happy with Jones and all the players are training well and happy with the tactics then the only conclusion left is that they simply aren't good enough and also the rest of the English players who can't get into the camp also aren't good enough. I don't think that option is the true one so all that's left is stuff is going wrong in camp and the players seem to be going overcompensating in saying the exact opposite.

It simply doesn't add up. Someone somewhere is lying about the state of English rugby.
 
ragerancher said:
I find it hard to believe anything the players in the camp say any more. Given we have heard from multiple people in different teams that Jones is a control freak who drives everyone hard and can't handle dissent plus comments from players who have left the camp, it doesn't add up.

According to the players in camp everything is fantastic, all the Sarries players are great there is no problem. Reality is they are putting in some of the worst performances of any England team, players who have left the camp tell a completely contradictory story and Jones has been unable to retain support staff for any length of time. If everything is great in camp, everyone is happy with Jones and all the players are training well and happy with the tactics then the only conclusion left is that they simply aren't good enough and also the rest of the English players who can't get into the camp also aren't good enough. I don't think that option is the true one so all that's left is stuff is going wrong in camp and the players seem to be going overcompensating in saying the exact opposite.

It simply doesn't add up. Someone somewhere is lying about the state of English rugby.
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I think it's interesting to note who the comments come from...

In a rugby environment, there can be one leader, who commands full respect and control, that being EJ. He'll have his "generals" etc, and try to get the team working as he sees is best, but he's in charge. Now Mike Brown doesnt exactly strike me as a man with total respect for authority, and certainly could hold a chip on his shoulder, particularly for the way he was brutally cut from the squad. He says about challenging EJ, but also from what I heard Hask comment on it, and he's again getting this from inside info as he wasnt in the camp, you dont challenge and have a go at your Head Coach in front of everyone else, that shows a total lack of respect and will not go down well. I also think EJ saw him phasing in Daly at this point anyway
Regarding working players hard, Itoje said it well too, great players want to be pushed, to reach their limits, and see how good they can be. EJ pushes them, but a lot of Enlgand insiders talk about how good he is as a man manager for the most part, to get the best out of his players.
Jones is 100% a control freak, going through scenarios in his head endlessly, a bit like Ana Taylor Joy in Queens gambit may be a good reference (though hopefully without the pills), but that doesnt make him a bad coach. he demands excellence of himself, and can therefore also demand it of his players. If he didnt, then he'd have a lot less respect. If there's any issues in camp, I'd suggest there are people able to talk about it, and EJ would rather hear about it than just be unknowing, though again strikes me as intelligent enough to see it himself
Maybe its just a hard rugby camp he runs, and if you cant handle it, you shouldnt be an international. Professional rugby isnt a game for someone who doesnt have that fire in them to compete
 
Today, Farrell’s a phenomenal captain and a few days ago Jones was a truly special coach. Of course he’s scarcely likely to say much else publicly, but at whose behest is Itoje speaking out at the moment?
 
I'm not sure what you expect them to say? Your not going to get anyone currently in the camp talk bad about the coach or captain. Might get some more juicy details if one retires or it might have to wait until it's in a player's autobiography.
 
MikeTheNative said:
I'm not sure what you expect them to say? Your not going to get anyone currently in the camp talk bad about the coach or captain. Might get some more juicy details if one retires or it might have to wait until it's in a player's autobiography.
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Yeah, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation for the players - like Itoje says in the article he's been friends with Farrell since he was 11yrs old. If you've got an interviewer asking you about him do you trash him?
Maybe didn't need the hyperbole of how good he is, but I wouldn't expect anyone who's currently in the England side, or has aspirations of being in the England side, to criticise the current captain. That would definitely put you on EJ's shitlist
 
I'll give Farrell some cred as he has played really well in the past however. It's not like he's irreplaceable, I'm sure there's good enough centres in England to play the role he has been asked to.
 
I don't have an issue with him playing.

However, even if he's in the form of his life you still have to address the issue of him being unavailable... Be that injury or ban....

Simply shifting him between 10 and 12 to accomodate Ford coming and going does not do that.
 
Reiser99 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56545040
Ignoring the unsurprising vote of confidence from Itoje. I'm worried by the fact that no one knew who was captain against Ireland after Farrell and Ford went off. As people have said, some thought it was Curry, others thought it was Itoje. There is clearly a leadership issue and as others have said, not enough strong leaders to stand up to Farrell and Jones when things are working. You'd have thought they would have at least discussed who would be captain in the event that Farrell is injured, it's rugby. Expecting Farrell to never get injured is laughable. Other big question is whether the likes of Itoje/Curry who people have tipped are strong enough to be part of the leadership team or not. Maybe it's the no dissent culture that Jones has instilled and under another coach they would feel free to question and challenge, but maybe they aren't strong enough to stand up to those in charge when things aren't working.
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In terms of leadership I think there are potentially a number of candidates and in regards the Ireland game it was more to do with poor communication from the bench than no one stepping up.

I still like Farrell but he needs to bugger off to France on a big money move for a couple of seasons and get his mojo back, the same could be said for the Billy, Mako and Daly.

They are not doing themselves or England any favours at the minute.
 

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