2012 New Zealand Squads

[james5000]

Bourke has a terrible work rate. He stands in the backline and often hopes the ball comes his way from fullback. Yes he's got skills for a #8, as he used to be a fullback, unfortunitely he makes less tackles and makes it to the break down hald as much as Waldrom or Lee.

I think you'll be alone in thinking Latimer is a better player than Waldrom. Waldrom was probably the best 7 in this ITM Cup, he looked brilliant for Taranaki. I have a feelling your a bias BoP fan, so I'm not too suprised you like Latimer and Bourke over clearly better players.

Latimer was definitely one of the best in the ITM cup, he had a great season. He will own that Chiefs jersey this year when game time comes. You can have your opinion, but to claim I am the only one who thinks this way is retarded lol, there are many people who rate Latimer because he's a gun.

Bourke has flashiness but he also has substance, he's got a seriously underrated work ethic and he's a passionate player and he loves playing for the BOP and the Chiefs.

Why pick players that aren't from the region when they are not definitely better options, we should put some pride in our own players. It's half the reason no one goes to chief's games because no one gives a **** about them, because they are not our players just a rag tag team.

They say Bourke is too similar to Lee and Messam and in a way it's true, but neither Lee or Messam have proven to be very good Number 8's. Bourke has a much better track record in the position. The Chief's only have 1 genuine number 8, they have 3 genuine 7's. One too many I think

Why do idiots bring up the old Bourke played FullBack 10 years ago comment? AND WHAT!!! he's an excellent number 8.

 

[Darwin]

Latimer was the third best flanker in the ITM Cup. For Bay of Plenty. Both Luke Braid and Sam Cane had better seasons than him in my opinion, with Latimer spending almost the entire season at blindside flanker rather than openside flanker. I don't think you will find many people outside of the Bay of Plenty region that would suggest that Latimer had a better Super Rugby or ITM Cup season than Scott Waldrom.

Why do idiots bring up the old Bourke played FullBack 10 years ago comment? AND WHAT!!! he's an excellent number 8.

Because these 'idiots' simply watch him play an note he still plays exactly like a fullback

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

He needs to tighten up - it's as simple as that. He has all the handling skills you could possibly want from a player (back or forward), but his primary role isn't passing or kicking. Too often he ends up just hanging out in the backline, instead of actually performing his core tasks.

I have been huge fans of both Bourke and Latimer in the past, and I never rated Waldrom, but he's been phenomenal in the last two years. I don't think Latimer adds anything to the loose forward trio. He's not a genuine fetcher any more, but also isn't particularly physical (like Kaino), so he's really just an extra player to pick and go on the odd occasion. I'm hoping Cane will be starting most of the matches come the tail end of the season, but I think we'll see Waldrom starting a lot of games to begin with.

Lee and Messam may not necessarily play all their rugby at 8, but they perform just as well there as 'specialists', so that's kind of irrelevant.

 

[Muzzy]

I've seen him playing, and I have to agree 100% with Invictus's analysis. Bourke has phenomenal ball skills and can be very dangerous given space, but when was the last time anyone saw him hit a ruck? It's all well and good to look great with ball in hand, but if you aren't doing your primary job as a loose-forward you aren't really that much of an asset to the team. Behind a dominant tight-five I could see the attraction of someone like Bourke, but behind the Chiefs pack I think he would be a bit of a liability.

To be honest I don't think Bradley that much of a better option at Super Rugby level though. He looks very good at ITM Cup level, but just seems to lack a yard or two of pace, which could mean he is far less effective at Super Rugby level. He's the sort of player that won't let the team down, but I can't really see him excelling in Super Rugby.

I have to completely disagree with you on Waldrom too - he is far from washed up. He had a strong Super Rugby season with the Chiefs (before he was injured) - alongside Todd and Luke Braid he was the pick of the New Zealand opensides on display. He followed this up with a great ITM Cup season with Taranaki, where he was in my opinion the best openside flanker in the competition. He is still incredibly fast, is great at the breakdown, and ball carrying and offloading has improved vastly in recent years. Had McCaw been forced out of the RWC with injury I'd have been happy to see him called up into the AB's squad. In contrast Latimer seems to have gone backwards in recent years. He is still a hard working player, but he is not at all dynamic. He tackles well and runs good lines in support, but he is largely ineffective at the breakdown, and offers next to nothing with the ball in hand. He can be effective playing a 'Reuben Thorne' roll alongside a genuine openside (as he did for the Chiefs at the start of last season), but I don't rate him that highly at all as openside flanker.



A really good point on the midfield there. I felt Payne was a real key for the Blues last season, and though I didn't think MacAlsiter had a great season he did provide a number of different options for the midfield. As you suggest the Blues midfield this season looks like it will lack a bit of creativity - it will probably really largely on brute power (especially if there is a Nonu/Ranger combo as has been suggested). I don't think that they will play Toeava in the midfield, but there is no reason why he couldn't enter the backline quite a bit from fullback, which could add a number of different options (as he is a very good passer).

I don't think the Blues have any issues outwide at all: Ranger can be devastating (though he may play at centre), and Rudi Wulf is a very classy player. Stowers, Raikuna, and Moala may lack experience at Super Rugby level, but they are three of the most dangerous attacking players in NZ rugby with the ball in hand.

Finally someone on here agree's with me on something lol, about Raikuna and Rudi Wulf though, I was gonna say before, Raikuna has incredible speed, but he has bad positional play, sometimes he struggles to get himself in the game or doesn't know how to get himself in a good attacking situation. Rudi Wulf was very quiet during his last seasons for the blues and was even more quiet at Toulon, I really don't know how he and Brad Mika still made the squad, I think they made a mistake picking Brad Mika over Matt Luamanu, Stowers and Ranger are great wingers though, it will be good to see Stowers finally get some shine at Super Rugby level

also agree with the others on Scott Waldrom over Latimer, he's been outstanding for Taranaki for a number of seasons, but he's never been given much game time at Super Rugby level, its really a shame coz I remember when I first saw him playing for Wellington he should have had a big future ahead of him, but at that time we had so many no. 7's with bigger reputations than him he lost out

 

[donmcdazzle]

Bourke has flashiness but he also has substance, he's got a seriously underrated work ethic and he's a passionate player and he loves playing for the BOP and the Chiefs.

They say Bourke is too similar to Lee and Messam and in a way it's true, but neither Lee or Messam have proven to be very good Number 8's. Bourke has a much better track record in the position. The Chief's only have 1 genuine number 8, they have 3 genuine 7's. One too many I think

Why do idiots bring up the old Bourke played FullBack 10 years ago comment? AND WHAT!!! he's an excellent number 8.

You need to actually look at game stats rather than just watching games with your BoP blinkers on. If you did you would see he ranks last by a long way in terms of tackles made and rucks hit out of the starting number 8's. He also averaged more kicking metres per game than most backs. None of those stats appeal much to coaches, however fans see him run and pass and kick and rave about how good of a game he had.

He has great ball skills, more than any other number 8 I'd say, but he doesn't even play number 8 really he's an extra centre. He should've stayed a bit slimmer, got faster, and would have been a fantastic centre I'm sure.

 

[Darwin]

Finally someone on here agree's with me on something lol, about Raikuna and Rudi Wulf though, I was gonna say before, Raikuna has incredible speed, but he has bad positional play, sometimes he struggles to get himself in the game or doesn't know how to get himself in a good attacking situation. Rudi Wulf was very quiet during his last seasons for the blues and was even more quiet at Toulon, I really don't know how he and Brad Mika still made the squad, I think they made a mistake picking Brad Mika over Matt Luamanu, Stowers and Ranger are great wingers though, it will be good to see Stowers finally get some shine at Super Rugby level

Really? I thought Wulf was very impressive in his last couple of seasons for the Blues. Indeed I thought he was very close to getting an AB's recall when he left in 2010. I can't comment on his form at Toulon though, as I don't watch much Top 14. I thought Wulf played very well in a disappointing North Harbour team this year, and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't start most matches for the Blues next season.

I agree to some degree on your analysis of Raikuna. His positional play is a bit suspect at times (both on attack and defense), and his tackling can be pretty weak at time. He does have incredible raw skills though: with the ball in hand he can beat opposition players in so many different ways. He's certainly not the finished product yet, but he certainly has the potential to be a real asset for the Blues at Super Rugby level.

On Luamanu/Mika: I was slightly surprised to see Mika picked ahead of Luamanu, but I can only assume that Mika has been picked for his experience, and his ability to mentor some of the young locks/loosies coming through (Moli, Saili, Paulo et al. ). Luamanu looks great at ITM Cup level, but has not looked impressive in his limited chances in Super Rugby - he really comes across as a bit of a flat tract bully. He's certainly an outstanding ball runner, but the rest of his game still needs a lot of work: he needs to actually so some work at the breakdown, and make a few more tackles. In saying that I think he deserves a Super Rugby spot as he has the potential to be an exceptional Super Rugby player, as he has a couple of attributes that can't be taught: incredible size and power.

 

[_George]

My desreved teams for week one:

Blues:
Woodcock, Mealamu, Faumuina, Boric, Williams, L.Braid, D.Braid, Kaino, Matthewson, Weepu, Ranger, Nonu, Stanley, Stowers, Toeava.

Chiefs:
Smith, Elliot, Afeaki, Clarke, Thompson, Waldrom, Latimer, Messam, Kerr Barlow, Cruden, Nanai Williams, SB Williams, Kahui, Masaga, Robinson.

Hurricanes:
May, Coles, Bent, Broadhurst, Eaton, Lam, Lowe, Vito, Smylie, Barrett, Leiua, Bateman, Smith, Taylor, Jane.

Crusaders:
B.Franks, Flynn, O.Franks, Romano, S.Whitelock, G.Whitelock, Todd, Read, Ellis, Bleyendaal, Guildford, A.Whitelock, Fruean, Maitland, Dagg.

Highlanders:
Mackintosh, Hore, King, Hoeata, Bekhuis, Thomson, Haskell, Manu, Cowan, Slade, Gear, Lynn, Ellison, Poki, Smith.

 

[Larksea]

I'm not a huge Bourke Fan but I dont think it's right he missed out and Haskell got a contract for the highlanders.

thinking about it in all the squads there are ~10 or more guys who are #8's and I believe Bourke is for sure is in the top 10 number 8's in New Zealand.

 

[Draggs]

Highlanders team not looking bad at all.
Shame Atiga (I know I go on about him in every Otago thread...) hasn't been able to recapture his form.
Still a shame about James Ryan. Looked to be a good lock and would have been a great part of the pack for years.

 

[lance2010]

I would of loved to seen Gillies Kaka pick up a Super Rugby contract.....Would of been a nice edition to the blues,picked up through the draft.

 

[ranger]

I would of loved to seen Gillies Kaka pick up a Super Rugby contract.....Would of been a nice edition to the blues,picked up through the draft.

If he doesnt pick up an NZ sevens contract there is something very wrong

 

[William18]

My desreved teams for week one:

Blues:
Woodcock, Mealamu, Faumuina, Boric, Williams, L.Braid, D.Braid, Kaino, Matthewson, Weepu, Ranger, Nonu, Stanley, Stowers, Toeava.

Chiefs:
Smith, Elliot, Afeaki, Clarke, Thompson, Waldrom, Latimer, Messam, Kerr Barlow, Cruden, Nanai Williams, SB Williams, Kahui, Masaga, Robinson.

Hurricanes:
May, Coles, Bent, Broadhurst, Eaton, Lam, Lowe, Vito, Smylie, Barrett, Leiua, Bateman, Smith, Taylor, Jane.

Crusaders:
B.Franks, Flynn, O.Franks, Romano, S.Whitelock, G.Whitelock, Todd, Read, Ellis, Bleyendaal, Guildford, A.Whitelock, Fruean, Maitland, Dagg.

Highlanders:
Mackintosh, Hore, King, Hoeata, Bekhuis, Thomson, Haskell, Manu, Cowan, Slade, Gear, Lynn, Ellison, Poki, Smith.

You for real at no McCaw/Carter?

 

[Darwin]

You for real at no McCaw/Carter?

Both look like they will miss the start of the season with injury, so I assume he is taking that into account.

I would of loved to seen Gillies Kaka pick up a Super Rugby contract.....Would of been a nice edition to the blues,picked up through the draft.

Hopefully he gets a wider-training squad spot with one of the franchises (I'd be happy to have him come down to the Highlanders ). I can't really understand how Nemani (who?) got selected ahead of him for the Chiefs - I can only remember Nemani playing 1-2 games for Hawkes' Bay, and he didn't impress me at all. In contrast Kaka is a similar age, and has been impressing for a couple of seasons now. Likewise I would have picked Kaka over Patrick Osbourne for the Crusaders - though Osbourne looks great going forward, his defense, ball handling, and work under the high ball is very shaky at times.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

You for real at no McCaw/Carter?

agree with the highlanders except treeby in for lynn

I'm really happy with that team but even happier that the bench will have names like rutledge, baker, lynn, A smith, Sopanga etc

 

[UilamOsa]

Finally someone on here agree's with me on something lol, about Raikuna and Rudi Wulf though, I was gonna say before, Raikuna has incredible speed, but he has bad positional play, sometimes he struggles to get himself in the game or doesn't know how to get himself in a good attacking situation. Rudi Wulf was very quiet during his last seasons for the blues and was even more quiet at Toulon, I really don't know how he and Brad Mika still made the squad, I think they made a mistake picking Brad Mika over Matt Luamanu, Stowers and Ranger are great wingers though, it will be good to see Stowers finally get some shine at Super Rugby level

also agree with the others on Scott Waldrom over Latimer, he's been outstanding for Taranaki for a number of seasons, but he's never been given much game time at Super Rugby level, its really a shame coz I remember when I first saw him playing for Wellington he should have had a big future ahead of him, but at that time we had so many no. 7's with bigger reputations than him he lost out

it's not that i'm trying to disagree with you. it's just that you're wrong.

Wulf was classy, hard to say he was quiet, his form and skills got him fringe selected for the AB's.

Matt Luamanu is a Big Bull with big horns and super talented up and comer but his problem is his consistency and his fitness. Also, more than anything - he's only ever really performed at no 8. There's alot of cover for the backrow (not great but decent), with Lowry, Kaino, Saili and even Boric. and Moli. (maybe)

Have faith brother!

As for Bourke - it says something that 5 Super 15 coaches didn't consider him good enough to play for them.

 

[Muzzy]

but the thing is, Matt Luamanu is a young up and coming player, now would have been the perfect time to develop him at a higher level, he's never even had any game time at Super Rugby level, surely this is the right time to develop him, (if not now then when?) coz he could be a future star in NZ, he could have been the next Lauaki or maybe even better, but if we keep leaving him out he'll just end up being another player that goes overseas, if Luamanu was in the Auckland team he would have been included in the Blues squad years ago. You maybe disagree on Rudi Wulf but there's no doubt in my mind that you'll see this season that he does nothing, he'll hardly score any tries regardless of how much game time he gets, he'll hardly do anything except make one or two good tackles which isn't enough, he should never have made the all blacks in the first place and i'm sure you'll be saying the same thing after a few blues games next season. Also I don't get how Rudi Wulf did nothing for Harbour or Toulon yet people still think he deserved a Blues selection, yet Luamanu was Harbour's best player for two years in a row yet he missed out

 

[nickdnz]

I certainly agree that Luamanu should have got a contract. Being in that environment would have done wonders for him, and he's still so young. The fact that he's been such a prolific try scorer for North Harbor over the last two years, I would have thought he was in a shoe in. He's so far from the finished product, as his fitness and work rate is very average. In saying that, I think he has far more potential than Saili. He'd certainly make a fantastic impact player to bring on in the final 60 minutes. He reminds me of a young Isitola Maka.

In terms of Rudi Wulf, I admit I never really rated him. He's not a great line breaker and doesn't have extremely raw pace. What he does have is very good handling (in 2009 when the game was force back, that was a very important thing), good positional play, a high work rate and according to Pat Lam, an extremely good work ethic (he claimed he was the Kevin Mealamu of the backs). Not a bad player to have. I've always preferred him at centre of fullback, but I think he's a good safe option to have on the right wing, with Stowers/Ranger/Raikuna al being x-factor players for the other wing. I'd like to see Ranger play in the midfield, but I have a felling Benson Stanley will be to good to leave out of the starting XV.

 

[Darwin]

You maybe disagree on Rudi Wulf but there's no doubt in my mind that you'll see this season that he does nothing, he'll hardly score any tries regardless of how much game time he gets, he'll hardly do anything except make one or two good tackles which isn't enough, he should never have made the all blacks in the first place and i'm sure you'll be saying the same thing after a few blues games next season. Also I don't get how Rudi Wulf did nothing for Harbour or Toulon yet people still think he deserved a Blues selection, yet Luamanu was Harbour's best player for two years in a row yet he missed out

I would probably have agreed a wee bit with that analysis a couple of years ago (I never thought he should have been picked for the AB's initially), but in his last two seasons with the Blues he was a much improved player. He bulked up a bit, and even appeared to have gotten faster (whether he did or not I don't know) - during the 2009 and 2010 Blues seasons he was a real threat with ball in hand. He was the Blues back of the season in 2009, and his 2010 form had him very close to an AB's recall. I don't know why you would suggest he 'hardly scores an tries regardless of how much gametime he gets" - he has scored 19 trys in 42 games for the Blues (0.45 tries per game) which is pretty impressive. That is a better try scoring ratio than either of the other main Blues wings in recent years (Ranger = 0.44 tries/game, Rokocoko = 0.40 tries per game). Wulf try scoring ratio at ITM Cup level is not as impressive, but to be fair not many Harbour backs score tries (incidentally Matt Luamanu's try scoring record for North Harbour is phenomenal: 17 tries in 22 games!).

I thought Wulf played very well for North Harbour at centre in a pretty dysfunctional team - outside of David Raikuna he was Harbour's most dangerous attacking back, and easily the most complete player in the backline. Again I can't comment on his time with Toulon, but reports I've heard suggest he had a pretty good season with them too. I expect he will start on the wing for most of the Blues season, though I wouldn't mind seeing him at centre (with Ranger on the wing), and he could get some gametime at fullback too if Toeava is rested/injured.

 

[UilamOsa]

but the thing is, Matt Luamanu is a young up and coming player, now would have been the perfect time to develop him at a higher level (1), he's never even had any game time at Super Rugby level, surely this is the right time to develop him, (if not now then when?) coz he could be a future star in NZ, he could have been the next Lauaki (2) or maybe even better, but if we keep leaving him out he'll just end up being another player that goes overseas, if Luamanu was in the Auckland team he would have been included in the Blues squad years ago.(1) You maybe disagree on Rudi Wulf but there's no doubt in my mind that you'll see this season that he does nothing, he'll hardly score any tries regardless of how much game time he gets, he'll hardly do anything except make one or two good tackles which isn't enough, he should never have made the all blacks in the first place and i'm sure you'll be saying the same thing after a few blues games next season. (3) Also I don't get how Rudi Wulf did nothing for Harbour or Toulon yet people still think he deserved a Blues selection, yet Luamanu was Harbour's best player for two years in a row yet he missed out (4)

(1) Absolutely agree with you - Had he been in the Auckland Pack he would've got more exposure and would've got ahead of Saili. He also would've been told do more work.
(2) Dear. God. No.
(3) Only time will tell, the stats pointed out by Darwin23 already disprove your thoughts. VBOOKIE on Wulf?
(4) For most of the ITM cup it was a massively underwhelming North Harbour Pack and the backline at times operated like a Schizophrenic with Parkinsons

 

[nickdnz]

(1) Absolutely agree with you - Had he been in the Auckland Pack he would've got more exposure and would've got ahead of Saili. He also would've been told do more work.
(2) Dear. God. No.
(3) Only time will tell, the stats pointed out by Darwin23 already disprove your thoughts. VBOOKIE on Wulf?
(4) For most of the ITM cup it was a massively underwhelming North Harbour Pack and the backline at times operated like a Schizophrenic with Parkinsons

An interesting bit of Psychology trivia, it's almost impossible for the two of those conditions to coexist, as one is caused by a lack of Dopamine being manufactured in the brain and the other is caused by an excess of it.