[2013 Pro12] Round 1

[lynam1104]

Munster looking good so far, Keatly really should've been number 1 in the 10 slot for some time based of this.

 

[lynam1104]

Feic pointed it out earlier but I was really impressed with Fanning for a guy I've never heard of he looked very good last night, can't think of one mistake made by him, not saying he has huge potential or anything just he looks ot have adapted to the team and pro 12 very quickly.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Feic pointed it out earlier but I was really impressed with Fanning for a guy I've never heard of he looked very good last night, can't think of one mistake made by him, not saying he has huge potential or anything just he looks ot have adapted to the team and pro 12 very quickly.

Bit of background info: Ripped it up in the second half of last year's AIL for St. Mary's, representing Leinster 'A' and the Ireland Clubs side. Had sent the previous year playing for some side in the ACT the season before, impressing to the extent that he played for the Brumbies 'A' side a few times and as said earlier had the the Rebels snooping. Had a stint with Connacht a few years back where he did pretty well before an illness or injury (can't remember the exact circumstances off the top of my head) ruled him out and he didn't make it back into the side.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Nick De Luca just carved the Munster midfield apart. Lol. 22-13 now.

One might ask why Munster had their two centres defending in around the ruck with James Coughlan left to cover about 25 yards of field in the middle.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Munster bounced back pretty much immediately by the by. They've also just taken off their entire front row having seen them getting well beaten in the scrum for the last hour.

 

[dullonien]

Anyone understand what happened towards the end of the Treviso v Ospreys game. King get's penalised for absolutely nothing as far as I could see, with both the touch judge and TMO saying he pulled a player back? It almost cost the Ospreys the game. With the risk of opening a can of worms, they were both Italian......

Poor game overall, with Neil Paterson really not helping things for both sides. The last few scrums at the death was just a joke, I think Paterson had forgotten that he had to tell the 9 to put the ball in.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<s>@</s>simonrug
Combined attendance for the six <s>@</s>RaboDirectPRO12 matches was 32,421, an average of 5,403. There were 62,637 at the Twickenham double-header.

The Pro12 needs to sex up it's image. Attendances were poor across the board, the league champs weren't shown live on TV in their home country and media coverage in the week leading up to the start of the league was non existent.

The Welsh doubleheader brought in close to 40,000 spectators last season. Could something like that be looked at as a season opener? The NFL opens in a primetime TV slot on a Thursday night to massive viewership figures. Is stealing that idea from another sport something worth pursuing?

 

[Peat]

The Pro12 needs to sex up it's image. Attendances were poor across the board, the league champs weren't shown live on TV in their home country and media coverage in the week leading up to the start of the league was non existent.

The Welsh doubleheader brought in close to 40,000 spectators last season. Could something like that be looked at as a season opener? The NFL opens in a primetime TV slot on a Thursday night to massive viewership figures. Is stealing that idea from another sport something worth pursuing?

Look at the last year

4,540 to watch Newport play Zebre at Rodney (5,165 this year to watch Ulster visit, so up this year, and less watched Ulster play at Rodney last season - however, Newport regularly attracted 5,000+ in mid season)
8,108 to watch Ulster play Glasgow at Ravenhill - no like fixture this year, but Ulster regularly attracted 11,000 later in the season
3,500 to watch Treviso play Ospreys - 4,981 watched that this year at Stade di Monigo, that's big progress
3,869 to watch Connacht play Cardiff at the Sportsground - Connacht got 4,084 to watch Zebre this year, more progress
6,559 to watch Scarlets play Leinster at home - 6,329 this year, so down. Bad news.
4,050 to watch Embra play Munster - A highlight of Embra's home attendances that season. This season Munster were at home, comfortably the biggest home team, but they were at Musgrave so not really at home...

So attendances are probably actually slightly up. But the Pro 12 contains too many minnow teams to get consistently good attendances when the likes of Leinster, Ulster, Cardiff, Ospreys and Munster aren't at home. Think there is also the undeniable issue that you know the stars won't be out on opening weekend.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Peat
When you put it like that, it's progress. Attendences have been creeping up over the last couple of seasons.

I think more can be done though. As you say, the stars being out is a big issue but I don't see the Pro 12 trying to address the problem or get around it and that has a knock on effect on how fans view the league. For example, I was delighted to get coverage of Scarlets v Leinster on RTE.ie. I didn't think they'd show the game at all since the World Cup qualifier between Ireland and Sweden was on at the same time. I'm a big Leinster fan and rugby fan in general - if I accept the norm that nobody cares about the start of the Pro 12 and accept limited coverage, how is the casual fan going to react to the league? Couldn't the Pro 12 insist on scheduling the first game of the season as Leinster at home to Scarlets on Thursday night with no other sports clashing? That would attract coverage.

The NFL have a "reality TV" show called Hard Knocks on HBO following a team in training camp and preseason to get people in the mood for gridiron. UFC experienced a surge in popularity through it's Ultimate Fighter TV show on Spike. They get people talking about the sport. This is the Pro 12's launch:

12 blokes looking bored standing behind the Northern Ireland tourism minister. Yawn. I don't know anyone who thinks "wow, my team's captain is going up to Belfast today to have his photo taken behind a trophy and speak to a couple of journalists". Old school rugby heads would denounce a Hard Knocks/Ultimate Fighter approach since they hate change. They're probably still reeling about rugby going pro and the try increasing in value to 5 points from 4. The sport is evolving constantly. How it's presented to the public needs to evolve too or it'll lead to the type of apathy with which the start of the Pro 12 is met.

Tony Ward had this to say in the Irish Independent on Saturday about his wishes for the coming season:

That ref cams, head cams, overhead cable cams, kicking tee cams and every other Mickey Mouse cam be binned forthwith.

I'd argue that's precisely what we do need. We need new innovative ways of showing the product and differentiating it from other sports, most prominently football. Let's get a reflink app so we can know what's happening when in a stadium. Let's get players miked up for more innovative programming post game. Let's get new camera angles that bring us closer to the action (although refcam needs a lot of work). Let's try to get the Pro 12 shown differently. If it's delivered in a cutting edge manner, it'll gain more credibility.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The coverage of the Pro 12 has been a long term bug bear of mine. I've been criticized in the past for this belief, but I for one cannot wait for Sky to get their hands on the tournament. Sure it means we'll probably see fewer games on the box, but things should be so much more professional.

Take RTÉ's current coverage as an example. They're currently advertising the Leinster - Ospreys game with the tagline "Pro 12 rugby is back." Lads, it's the second week. Is tyhe tactic seriously going to be let's ignore the competition until we get to show a game. Similarly, I'm not too happy about TG4 and S4C having games. I have no problem with either of the native tongues, but it does the league no favors to have their games carried in languages that most of the populace has a cumbersome knowledge of at best.

The standard of rugby in the Pro 12 isn't that different from either of the other main leagues in Europe, but it needs a serious face lift. Doubles headers in the Millenium would be a great idea. Similarly, I'd question the timing on the interpro's. We usually play Munster just before the first round of Heineken Cup games - surely this is the worst time to do so for the league? Essentially it says that one of the biggest domestic rivalries acts as little more than a warmup for Europe. That's pretty much the exact attitude that the English clubs in particular are so quick to brand us with.

From a Leinster point of view I see it like this: we have three serious rivals in the league - Ulster, Munster and Ospreys. One of these games should be at the start of the season. People will always be up for an interpro game, regardless of the quality of the teams on display. Having one of these at the start will generate some much needed buzz. A repeat if last year's final in the RDS on a Saturday night would have been a lovely way to get the league started.

 

[Peat]

No, you're right - shoulda said that, was just presenting the other side of the coin and got lazy. The Pro 12 is very much undermarketed, not least due to a lack of money.

And, while I agree with you, I also agree to an extent with Tony Ward - maybe I'm being too conservative, but a lot of the new cameras add very little. I don't want gimmicks, I want quality rugby well presented with as much useful info as can be tactfully represented. I think there is too much intrusion into the dressing room already. I understand gimmicks can attract new punters

Some reality shows would be great. Look how popular "Living with Lions" usually is... actually, I've no idea, I just presume it is. Scotland in particular I feel could benefit from such a programme, taking us through pre-season, to drive up interest levels, they're real underperformers here and a country in danger of losing its rugby heritage. Get people thinking rugby.

When do Sky actually start coverage of the league?

The standard of rugby in the Pro 12 isn't that different from either of the other main leagues in Europe, but it needs a serious face lift. Doubles headers in the Millenium would be a great idea. Similarly, I'd question the timing on the interpro's. We usually play Munster just before the first round of Heineken Cup games - surely this is the worst time to do so for the league? Essentially it says that one of the biggest domestic rivalries acts as little more than a warmup for Europe. That's pretty much the exact attitude that the English clubs in particular are so quick to brand us with.

I'd say its one of the best times. Teams put their best teams out for those games to get them in readiness, which I feel is the main thing. Problem is, you get a feeling that only certain parts of the season matter, largely because that's true...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Feicarsinn
Everything you say is right

The coverage of the Pro 12 has been a long term bug bear of mine. I've been criticized in the past for this belief, but I for one cannot wait for Sky to get their hands on the tournament. Sure it means we'll probably see fewer games on the box, but things should be so much more professional.

Take RTÉ's current coverage as an example. They're currently advertising the Leinster - Ospreys game with the tagline "Pro 12 rugby is back." Lads, it's the second week. Is tyhe tactic seriously going to be let's ignore the competition until we get to show a game. Similarly, I'm not too happy about TG4 and S4C having games. I have no problem with either of the native tongues, but it does the league no favors to have their games carried in languages that most of the populace has a cumbersome knowledge of at best.

If there's one thing Sky do brilliantly, it's hype the **** out of things. Premier League, Ashes, Ryder Cup, Lions, Heineken Cup. They've all gained hugely from Sky bigging them up to gain subscriptions. Their coverage even made the turgid Aviva Premiership seem sexy!

I think marrying Sky's coverage with domestic broadcasters is a good deal. Give Sky their first pick of a game every week and let Dewi Morris and Stuart Barnes cream themselves talking about it. The current broadcasters will have to up their game or else they'll look like amateurs.

The standard of rugby in the Pro 12 isn't that different from either of the other main leagues in Europe, but it needs a serious face lift. Doubles headers in the Millenium would be a great idea. Similarly, I'd question the timing on the interpro's. We usually play Munster just before the first round of Heineken Cup games - surely this is the worst time to do so for the league? Essentially it says that one of the biggest domestic rivalries acts as little more than a warmup for Europe. That's pretty much the exact attitude that the English clubs in particular are so quick to brand us with.

You're right, the Leinster v Munster ties are essentially warm ups from the Heineken Cup group stage and the quarter final. Those fixtures should be big enough in their own right to be standalone fixtures.

Present the product better and more people will care.

 

[psychic duck]

The coverage of the Pro 12 has been a long term bug bear of mine. I've been criticized in the past for this belief, but I for one cannot wait for Sky to get their hands on the tournament. Sure it means we'll probably see fewer games on the box, but things should be so much more professional.

Take RTÉ's current coverage as an example. They're currently advertising the Leinster - Ospreys game with the tagline "Pro 12 rugby is back." Lads, it's the second week. Is tyhe tactic seriously going to be let's ignore the competition until we get to show a game. Similarly, I'm not too happy about TG4 and S4C having games. I have no problem with either of the native tongues, but it does the league no favors to have their games carried in languages that most of the populace has a cumbersome knowledge of at best.

The standard of rugby in the Pro 12 isn't that different from either of the other main leagues in Europe, but it needs a serious face lift. Doubles headers in the Millenium would be a great idea. Similarly, I'd question the timing on the interpro's. We usually play Munster just before the first round of Heineken Cup games - surely this is the worst time to do so for the league? Essentially it says that one of the biggest domestic rivalries acts as little more than a warmup for Europe. That's pretty much the exact attitude that the English clubs in particular are so quick to brand us with.

From a Leinster point of view I see it like this: we have three serious rivals in the league - Ulster, Munster and Ospreys. One of these games should be at the start of the season. People will always be up for an interpro game, regardless of the quality of the teams on display. Having one of these at the start will generate some much needed buzz. A repeat if last year's final in the RDS on a Saturday night would have been a lovely way to get the league started.

Can't agree with this part. The Scarlets came 4th last season, and lost every single game in Europe, two wide beatings by Clermont, and then two defeats to a middling Premiership side. The other semi finalist Glasgow have hardly achieved much in Europe either. A mid table Pro12 side Cardiff Blues looked on a par with the Sale at the bottom of the Premiership in their pool. And all those play the tournament with their full teams, the Pro12 sides are weaker. I doubt the Munster or Ospreys teams on display this weekend would have much chance against the Premership teams in equivalent teams in similar positions.

And that's the top of the league, at the bottom of the league, Zebre and Dragons would both be relegated out of the other leagues, Connacht, Edinburgh and Cardiff Blues would also be languishing near the bottom as well in my opinion. That's nearly half the league which is the standard of a 10-12th Premiership or 11-14th Top 14 side. The fact that the god awful Dragons side can even occasionally ambush a weakened good side doesn't say much for the standard either. Just as a reflection of the Dragons standard, in their last HCup run between 2007-2011 they won 2 matches from 24 both against Glasgow, since going down to the Amlin they've won 1 in 8 games against the T14/AP opposition, including being doubled by a Bayonne reserves team. There's a greater percentage of poor sides in the league, and the good sides get disproportionately effected by internationals as they provide so many of them.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Can't agree with this part. The Scarlets came 4th last season, and lost every single game in Europe, two wide beatings by Clermont, and then two defeats to a middling Premiership side. The other semi finalist Glasgow have hardly achieved much in Europe either. A mid table Pro12 side Cardiff Blues looked on a par with the Sale at the bottom of the Premiership in their pool. And all those play the tournament with their full teams, the Pro12 sides are weaker. I doubt the Munster or Ospreys teams on display this weekend would have much chance against the Premership teams in equivalent teams in similar positions.

And that's the top of the league, at the bottom of the league, Zebre and Dragons would both be relegated out of the other leagues, Connacht, Edinburgh and Cardiff Blues would also be languishing near the bottom as well in my opinion. That's nearly half the league which is the standard of a 10-12th Premiership or 11-14th Top 14 side. The fact that the god awful Dragons side can even occasionally ambush a weakened good side doesn't say much for the standard either. Just as a reflection of the Dragons standard, in their last HCup run between 2007-2011 they won 2 matches from 24 both against Glasgow, since going down to the Amlin they've won 1 in 8 games against the T14/AP opposition, including being doubled by a Bayonne reserves team.

I'm afraid those comparisons don't work. Castres, the French champions no less, have never done anything in Europe. Munster weren't even in serious playoff contention in the Rabo last year and pushed Clermont all the way. Edinburgh made it all the way to the semi's the season before where it took a Pro 12 team to beat them. Leinster were in a different class to Biarritz, Stade and Wasps on their way to the Amlin last season. Connacht have beaten Biarritz and Quins in the last two years in Europe.

You can twist those arguments any way you like. The fact of the matter is that it's all speculation, essentially akin to the "my team beat yours and your team beat theirs, so my team is better than theirs" kind of thinking.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm afraid those comparisons don't work. Castres, the French champions no less, have never done anything in Europe. Munster weren't even in serious playoff contention in the Rabo last year and pushed Clermont all the way. Edinburgh made it all the way to the semi's the season before where it took a Pro 12 team to beat them. Leinster were in a different class to Biarritz, Stade and Wasps on their way to the Amlin last season. Connacht have beaten Biarritz and Quins in the last two years in Europe.

You can twist those arguments any way you like. The fact of the matter is that it's all speculation, essentially akin to the "my team beat yours and your team beat theirs, so my team is better than theirs" kind of thinking.

That's just what your argument is when stating one off jammy wins for Connacht and Edinburgh. I was stating the records of Scarlets, Glasgow, Cardiff Blues, Dragons, Zebre etc over the course of a season, or many seasons in the case of the Dragons who have long been a joke in Europe.

I don't see your point of the Leinster comparison either. Under Schmidt were probably the best European side of all time, and were still a top 4 European side last season in my opinion, they had a strong team and playing a mid table English side in Wasps, and two lower mid table French sides ranked 9th and 10th in the league. That's not comparing like for like, it's more like comparing Toulon to the Cardiff Blues or Edinburgh for instance.

It's well known Castres don't take the tournament seriously especially away games and latter rounds, it's not accurate to judge their side on the tournament. Scarlets, Blues, Glasgow however all play their full side throughout the tournament.

In the same way Castres aren't at full strength in Europe, you can't argue that Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys are at all at as high a standard in the regular season Pro12. Ulster would never lose to the long time European joke the Dragons in a Heineken Cup match. In that Edinburgh cup run season you mention, they turned their Pro12 side into a joke with no threat of relegation for the last few months of the season (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/teams/edinburgh/fixtures.php?includeref=11264&season=2011-2012), the Heineken Cup run was palpably not of the same standard as the Pro12 side, particularly from January onwards.

Munster may have kept going in the Clermont match, but I doubt their Pro12 side which played this weekend without O'Connell, O'Mahony, Ryan etc would have shown such resistance.

We're talking about Pro12 standards here, they are weaker than Heineken Cup sides. So Scarlets losing all 6 matches last season with a full side in Europe, doesn't say much for the league where they finished 4th in a campaign with fair periods of it without Jonathan Davies, North, Owens etc. Now surely you have to admit that's a pretty low standard side to come 4th in the league. A quick search reveals this to be a typical Scarlets side during a 6 Nations week off (http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=173533), that wouldn't come 4th in the Top 14 or Premiership. The Pro12 has about 90% of the international squads from 4 nations (less for the Welsh) packed into less teams (Connacht and Dragons have few), and they pull them out of league more often, it leads to lower standards.

 

[Feicarsinn]

So Castres not taking the tournament seriously can be used as an excuse? Why can't I say that Glasgow don't take it seriously in that case. Look at some of the records of the French and English sides in the tournament:

Castres: 5 wins in their last 18 games
Metro: 6 wins in their last 18 games
Sale: 1 win in Europe last year, and conceded 65 points against Toulon

The fact of the matter is that the Pro 12 gets four more teams in the tournament than the Top 14 and AP, so of course its sides will suffer more losses. If you threw Grenoble, Worcester, Bayonne, Bath, etc. in you'd see similar results to Edinburgh and Cardiff, who both are weaker Pro 12 sides going off last year's table. But if you compare 1st vs 1st and all the way down there isn't as big a disparity as you suggest.

I don't mean this personally, but essentially it is people with your attitude that really hurt the Pro 12. The Welsh apathy for a product featuring some of the top players in the world on their very doorstep in shocking for a country that supposedly calls itself a rugby nation.

 

[Peat]

So Connacht beating Quins and Biarritz is a one-off fluke thing, while Ulster losing to Dragons is a sign of us not taking the Pro 12 seriously?

Got it.

For the record, that was the strongest Ulster team available allowing for injury and a sensible regard for player welfare - not chucking in young players who haven't had a proper pre-season and our one fit Lion. We sent a team with 8 internationals starting and another 3 on the bench. We had one guy still on international duty (Pienaar), five internationals injured (Afoa, Ferris, Wallace, Bowe, Gilroy), three internationals rested (Best, Olding, Henderson) and one A international omitted due to family reasons (Fat Nick). I suppose we could have been ****ty employers (or rather the IRFU could have for some) and sent them in anyway, and they may have made a difference, but the team sent was good enough to beat the Dragons on paper, and was always going to be missing four key players.

edit: I will state this as a definitive position - I believe that in terms of quality of rugby, the Pro 12 is as good as the AP on a regular basis. It's a product worth seeing and a product worth marketing. Holes can be picked in it but the strengths remain.

 

[Nomad]

I really do feel that the Pro 12 could be better, When you look at the Super 15 for example, Why can't we use this competition as a template for our own, For example, Change the season to run through the summer so that the clubs don't lose their international players for most of the season, We could also play away fixtures in blocks as mini tours (Ospreys go to Ireland and play Muster and Leinster over 2 Weekends for example).

I really like the Double Header fixture too, Four welsh regions at the Millenium Stadium, I don't know how the Irish fans would feel about the provinces doing the same at say the Aviva stadium or Croke Park.

What are peoples feelings on this? I just feel the way things are at the moment there seems to be a few to many meaningless fixtures, Especially during the Autumn and 6 Nations. Would a competition played through the summer with internationals playing week in week out be more appealing??

 

[Tony Manx]

Would a competition played through the summer......................... be more appealing??

NO..... with or without the International players........

 

[psychic duck]

So Castres not taking the tournament seriously can be used as an excuse? Why can't I say that Glasgow don't take it seriously in that case.

Yes, because it is obvious that by Castres selections that it is not their first choice team. Everybody knows this, look at the Castres selection for the home game with Glasgow last season for instance (http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/heineken_cup.php?section=lineups&fixid=174220). Only 3 of the starting XV started the Top 14 final.

It doesn't work for the Pro12 sides as Europe is seen as the pinnacle, Glasgow selected their strongest team throughout, although their Europe campaign was effected by injuries last season, leading to them winning only won 1 game through a last minute try. That same team minus internationals for large periods, qualified 3rd in the Pro12 which again doesn't say much for the standard.

Look at some of the records of the French and English sides in the tournament:
Castres: 5 wins in their last 18 games

Metro: 6 wins in their last 18 games

Sale: 1 win in Europe last year, and conceded 65 points against Toulon

Castres aren't fans of the tournament as we've established. Yet their record of 6 wins over the past 3 seasons is still equal to that of the Scarlets who finished in the equivalent position in the Pro12, but took the tournament seriously. So whilst comparing them in Europe they look roughly even, if you then consider Scarlets are weakened for considerable amounts of the Pro12 whilst Castres are stronger in the Top 14, then the evidence would suggest that the Top 14 has the stronger side.

As for Sale, they were the relegation strugglers last season and spent much of the season at the bottom. They still looked on a par with the Cardiff Blues who were a mid table side in the Pro12. Even when Sale threw the towel in to focus on the Premiership by the end and brought a weak side with unheard of nobodies such as Aston Croall, Tom Holmes, James Doyle, Charlie Amesbury and Jordan Davies starting they could still stay in touch with a full strength Blues side. If the equivalent placed Pro12 side Dragons had brought their weakened side on away trip to a mid table side like Bath or Wasps at full strength the margin would be more than 12 points.

The fact of the matter is that the Pro 12 gets four more teams in the tournament than the Top 14 and AP, so of course its sides will suffer more losses. If you threw Grenoble, Worcester, Bayonne, Bath, etc. in you'd see similar results to Edinburgh and Cardiff, who both are weaker Pro 12 sides going off last year's table. But if you compare 1st vs 1st and all the way down there isn't as big a disparity as you suggest.

I'm not just talking about the weak sides like Zebre (who I would argue are worse than Worcester, Newcastle, Bordeaux or Grenoble and I wish would play in the Amlin Cup as well).

Scarlets finished 4th in the Pro12. Looking at European performances, with all at full strength it's easy to tell they are not the 4th best side in the Pro12. Nor are they better than any of the top 4 in the other leagues. So how did they get to top 4 in the Pro12? The answer is by results such as beating Leinster 45-20 last season in a game where the opposition were weakened, playing Munster twice during the two international periods where the opposition were more weakened than they were.

The standard from Heineken Cup to Pro12 had to drop to allow Scarlets to reach the top 4, especially a Scarlets without their best players for much of it. If they were in the Premiership and the WRU still ridiculously pulled out even the fringe benchwarmer internationals like Tavis Knoyle and Scott Williams for Polish training camps 2 weeks before internationals, whilst sides like Exeter (who could beat their full strength anyway) remained far less effected, then their position would probably range at about 7 at at the highest.

You need to realise the extent that teams are weakened by the internationals compared to the others. Not only did the Ospreys have half their pack crocked playing in the internationals in November, there are 3 main providers to the Welsh national team so they can lose well over 15 players with even the likes of Ryan Bevington and Ashley Beck who don't start internationals or even make the 22 with all fit go missing. For this reason, the Welsh teams have to now consider the value of these players with them not playing. Fringe Welsh players like Craig Mitchell and Tavis Knoyle have been forced to go to England as a result.

I don't mean this personally, but essentially it is people with your attitude that really hurt the Pro 12. The Welsh apathy for a product featuring some of the top players in the world on their very doorstep in shocking for a country that supposedly calls itself a rugby nation.

The top players are not always there though with the good teams so often weakened. Honestly watching an internationally effected Edinburgh vs Dragons fixture in February is dire stuff. The worst fixture in the league Zebre vs Dragons last season got a crowd of 400. At least the ugly fixtures in the Top 14 and Premiership, Worcester vs Newcastle or Oyonnax vs Grenoble for example are relegation deciders. The Pro12 ones are simply dire dead rubbers without relegation or Europe to play for.

So Connacht beating Quins and Biarritz is a one-off fluke thing, while Ulster losing to Dragons is a sign of us not taking the Pro 12 seriously?
Got it.

Beating Quins was a fluke in the same way Scotland beating Australia was a fluke. Biarritz are genuinely **** and getting ****ter, so that might not be, although it was still an upset and I would back Biarritz as the better side.

As for the Dragons vs Ulster game. I sincerely doubt that a top 3 Premiership side or top 3 Top 14 side would lose to the Dragons. The Dragons (who are part of the problem with Welsh rugby) can ambush weakened teams now and again, but even a weakened Toulouse or Saracens wouldn't have much issue.

Ulster don't have quite the depth of squad behind the internationals, certainly not as good as the equivalent of Toulouse or Saracens, so when they spend parts of the league weakened such as this weekend double figures of players missing, again, that doesn't suggest the league is as higher standard. Dragons would be relegated from the Premiership, and I am confident of that prediction.

By the way, I never said Ulster didn't take the Pro12 seriously (although I do believe they would prefer the Heineken Cup). It's not their choice, it's the IRFU.