[2014 Mid-Year Tests] Crusaders vs England XV

[Tony Manx]

I think it is wonderful for England that there is this argument going on about the back row, and many other positions, as this just would not have happened only a couple of years back as there were not enough decent players to argue about then!

I would also take up the point about the lack of "world class players" someone mentioned above.....

Toulon had a huge number of world class players yet, before Laporte came and bound them into a team, they could win b***** all!

Will Greenwood (and Fitz agreed) said after the match that what Lancaster has been very successful at doing in just two short years is creating a team that has structure, cohesion and a belief in itself that means that the only person who would be missed, his choice not mine, is Manu. All other positions, there is someone who could be parachuted in and the team would not suffer.........

I guess that this is what the argument is about here.....with Kvesic, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Vuniploa, Morgan et al, you can take your pick and the team would not suffer!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Kvesic hasn't been given time against the big boys yet and he should do.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

I missed the first 20 minutes of the game today but it seemed to me the breakdown was actually a problem area for England (especially in the second half - where I thought we were pretty poor truth be told). It was at best messy and we coughed up a lot of ball. Not sure if that's Kvesic's problem but still..

 

[Tony Manx]

Kvesic hasn't been given time against the big boys yet and he should do.

Perhaps that is true but he has had a poor season for Gloucester but, like Burns, pulled a big game from the debris of the season....maybe the common denominator for both is Gloucester and next year it will be different under new management and with better players about him for both of them (Burns being at Tigers!)?!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Kvesic was good enough today to put him above both Haskell and Johnson as 5th choice backrower.
That's not to say he wasn't very good, but the other two are ahead of him, so he would've had to be really special to overtake them.
Johnson gets a lot of stick, but he's a very good rugby player, is surprisingly useful in the lineout, and I thought he was great today.

 

[Aedaphon]

If we are going to start this England no.7/true openside debate. My 2 cents worth: Lancaster needs to be confident that Billy or Ben can put in a 80 minute shift. If so, then he can put Kvesic on the bench and he comes on to replace Wood and Robshaw shifts across to play the 6/blindside role and Kvesic plays the 7/Openside role England are crying out for.

With Cole out injured, we're really looking at Launchbury doing a lot of the Jackaling work on the floor and he's not looked at his best in the last two matches.

Who is England qualified that could possibly play as a true openside but also covers no.8 for his club...?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think Kvesic was good enough today to put him above both Haskell and Johnson as 5th choice backrower.
That's not to say he wasn't very good, but the other two are ahead of him, so he would've had to be really special to overtake them.
Johnson gets a lot of stick, but he's a very good rugby player, is surprisingly useful in the lineout, and I thought he was great today.

I completely disagree - Kvesic was significantly better than both Haskell and Johnson today - as he was in comparison to the flankers he played with in Argentina last year.

Who is England qualified that could possibly play as a true openside but also covers no.8 for his club...?

Kvesic.

 

[Tony Manx]

Who is England qualified that could possibly play as a true openside but also covers no.8 for his club...?

The elephant in the room


STEFFAN ARMITAGE!!!!!

 

[goodNumber10]

The elephant in the room


STEFFAN ARMITAGE!!!!!

Wouldn't let him carry the kit bag until he gets back to the UK... And even then he's not what England need.

 

[goodNumber10]

This whole argument about Kvesic and Armitage is redundant as Lancaster and Rowntree are not interested in an out and out open side.

It doesn't fit our style of play in any way and we have enough link players with ball in hand to not need a specialist... So it's ground work where they would be looking to make a difference and we aren't looking for that.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

Certainly Armitage is streets ahead of anything we have although for my money Kvesic should be ahead of Johnson at the moment.

I feel sorry for Goode who gets absolutely slated on here and by English fans in general and he's a quality player. He has his weaknesses certainly but he's an excellent ball player with a cool head and played well today.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Armitage would certainly be in the EPS squad - but until you've seen how he performs in the context of the England team then it's ******** to say he's miles ahead of anyone in the squad.

Goode's weaknesses mean he is fundamentally flawed as an international outside back - he's just too ****ing slow.

 

[Patchey]

Goode is the very personification of average. He's a solid, uninspiring but reliable player who would be much better if he'd stayed at 10.

As Rats says, he is too slow to be an outside back.

 

[Tony Manx]

This whole argument about Kvesic and Armitage is redundant as Lancaster and Rowntree are not interested in an out and out open side..

Maybe correct but he is an English qualified 7 who can cover 8 - which was the question asked!

He is not redundant for that reason but he CHOSES to play his rugby abroad and the APL, being terrified of losing their players likewise, have had the RFU tell Lancaster not to select such players................almost as bad protectionism as the French authorities fining an English ski instructor 30,000 euro for teaching skiing in France for over 30 years on solely English qualifications!!

 

[goodNumber10]

He won't be covering 8 at international level.

England aren't really looking for turnovers on the ground... That's just not how they defend they don't tend to commit people to the breakdown on defence.

All their ground based turnovers tend to come from players getting isolated in close to the breakdown, not from a ranging forward getting out wide and over the top of a tackle.

Armitage, as good as he is, doesn't fit the profile.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

Armitage would certainly be in the EPS squad - but until you've seen how he performs in the context of the England team then it's ******** to say he's miles ahead of anyone in the squad.

Goode's weaknesses mean he is fundamentally flawed as an international outside back - he's just too ****ing slow.

OK, maybe I should qualify that. He's easily good enough to be in our first line choice for the back row. Not necessarily better than Robshaw and Wood but certainly on a par.

Pace is understandably important at the top level but for people to completely turn a blind eye to his strengths because of it is a bit harsh in my view. Anticipation, playing under pressure, ball handling, ability with the boot, they're all important things that he does well (I guess he wouldn't be in the squad otherwise)

 

[Captain Robshaw]

He won't be covering 8 at international level.

England aren't really looking for turnovers on the ground... That's just not how they defend they don't tend to commit people to the breakdown on defence.

All their ground based turnovers tend to come from players getting isolated in close to the breakdown, not from a ranging forward getting out wide and over the top of a tackle.

Armitage, as good as he is, doesn't fit the profile.

So if he added something to our team that would be a bad thing? Armitage could get in our team on his carrying alone.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Goode's passing was arse today.
He's a very good player for saracens but I don't think he's right for international rugby, especially with Brown Foden and Pennell around, and Watson n Nowell lurking in the shadows.

 

[Tony Manx]

So if he added something to our team that would be a bad thing? Armitage could get in our team on his carrying alone.

Agreed - I got fed up!!

Goode's passing was arse today.
He's a very good player for saracens but I don't think he's right for international rugby, especially with Brown Foden and Pennell around, and Watson n Nowell lurking in the shadows.

Never been a fan but do remember he has been around a while (loyalty a trait Lancaster supports) and plays for Sarries (Farrell was coach there) so do not see him dropping down the line as quick as you and perhaps he should for rugby reasons!!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What I found strange out of all this is that we haven't choose noir first choice wingers but for a trial game we had two full backs playing on the wing?

Then in the test team a 13 on the wing?

No stand out wing candidates in lancasters mind then.