[2014 TRC] New Zealand v Argentina in Napier (06/09/2014)

[Big Ewis]

I guess you could say Read mis...read Lobbe's strength. Haha ok I'm going to bed.

 

[ianw16]

Bore off mate. According to everybody who has a losing record against the AB's (which is everybody) the referees are always pro-NZ. Give it a rest. How about; the reason France (for arguments sake, just picking a team out of nowhere) don't beat the All Blacks very often, is because they aren't very good? The rugby in that particular country is so p*ss poor that they are extremely unlikely to produce players, let alone a team, that can consistently challenge at the very top. Which is why so many has beens are making a living in that p*ss poor competition they call the "Top 14". Bit of a misnomer, from what I've seen of it.
But as long as they keep kidding themselves that they are actually any good at the game, and basing it on the odd (very occasional) performance, then people, at least those who know sod all about the game, will continue to believe their hype.
They used to be half decent, but not in a long while.

 

[LittleGuy]

Bore off mate. According to everybody who has a losing record against the AB's (which is everybody) the referees are always pro-NZ. Give it a rest. How about; the reason France (for arguments sake, just picking a team out of nowhere) don't beat the All Blacks very often, is because they aren't very good? The rugby in that particular country is so p*ss poor that they are extremely unlikely to produce players, let alone a team, that can consistently challenge at the very top. Which is why so many has beens are making a living in that p*ss poor competition they call the "Top 14". Bit of a misnomer, from what I've seen of it.
But as long as they keep kidding themselves that they are actually any good at the game, and basing it on the odd (very occasional) performance, then people, at least those who know sod all about the game, will continue to believe their hype.
They used to be half decent, but not in a long while.

Who are you replying to? It isn't quite clear.

 

[ianw16]

Who are you replying to? It isn't quite clear.

Sorry, pressed the right button, I think, but I was replying to Boring, sorry, Big Ewis. I quote: "Oh, and he totally pushes Leguizamon back on his assist to Savea for his 2nd try, but then again the reffing was ridiculously pro-NZ."

Of course it's always pro-NZ. How do the French people think we've managed to win over 75% (getting close to 80%) of all test matches played since Adam was a boy?

Just get p*ssed off with these cretins. The only reason the All Blacks ever win is due to cheating, bad referees, or actually buying the referees! Never anything to do with the fact that they might actually be better than everybody else. Rant over.

 

[LittleGuy]

The weather forecast doesn't look promising. It always seems to rain whenever Argentina turns up these days! I'm hoping for a better display of wet weather rugby from the All Blacks than we saw in Sydney a few weeks ago...

My rain dances.....also worked for Canada vs. Japan in 2013. I only do them on special occasion when I feel a team I support could be in for a hammering.

 

[Darwin]

My rain dances.....also worked for Canada vs. Japan in 2013. I only do them on special occasion when I feel a team I support could be in for a hammering.

Stop it. Just stop it. That is not very nice. Stop ruining the spectacle for everyone The only time you have my permission to do a rain dance for AB's match is when it is played in Dunedin.....

I guess you could say Read mis...read Lobbe's strength. Haha ok I'm going to bed.

I would hardy describe that as McCaw being 'bounced'. He went a bit high and got knocked backwards but he completed both of the tackles. Read on the other hand certainly got 'bounced'!

just finished watching this. Just a few things:
- Marcos Ayerza is the best scrummaging LH in the world, and it's not even close. Maybe best scrummager at all. The dude doesn't just win his matchup in the scrum or avoids penalties, he traverses the opposite scrum. Jannie du Plessis, busted. Owen Franks, busted. Kepu, you fat fk, I'd advise you to start looking for an amazingly, but I mean amazingly good psychotherapist, or to get some damn good life insurance.
- Overall, Argentina have the best scrum in the world atm with France out of the way. Think, they don't even have Juan Figallo on the Tighthead side...
- Love Creevy: the rugged, brutal hooker of old.
- Argentina looked just as good as we expected, but the AB are that good. Nothing left to the imagination, everything panned out nice and clean (despite the early pis$). They're so old school: huge scrum, gritty, a bit dirty, and know how to throw the oval around and aren't afraid to. Just love em these days.

All-Blacks:
- Retallick the best lock in the world ? I think so. At very least; but this is certain for me and non-negotiable; he gets one of two spots in the World XV. He's like this geeky kid, a Rugby nerd, loves to do everything and is a serious pro. Such a clean, polished game for a second rower.
- Beauden Barrett's pretty good. But he either fell prey to a horrible prank by the AB staff and teammates who never warned him about penalty kicking, or he lost a bet before the game. Hopefully he now knows what those posts on the field are for, but more importantly, I don't care that this is "just one game"; AB can't have him take the kicks regularly. Oh, and he totally pushes Leguizamon back on his assist to Savea for his 2nd try, but then again the reffing was ridiculously pro-NZ.
- Ben Smith was kind of invisible. Dagg was pretty damn good at FB, but I really think B.Smith on the wing is a waste. Piutau or Jane there probably, no ?
- Savea's shoulder charge: isn't that a yellow, minimum ? Saw Montypellier Castres last night and Beatie sees red for the same offense, and no it wasn't more intense than Savea's. Just a penalty ?? fkng ridiculous.

P.S.: Will be wearing Argentina's flag as support during this tournament.

I don't think there is a major issue with Barrett's goal-kicking. He had a poor match (in difficult conditions). I don't know of a single goal-kicker that doesn't have the odd poor match though. If you are going to drop a goal-kicker when they have a poor match you won't be left with any goal-kicking options before long.....

Barrett isn't an outstanding goal-kicker (he kicked at 73% during the Super Rugby season), but overall he is pretty solid, and probably better than Cruden (who only kicked at 68% during the Super Rugby season). If the AB's are happy to have Cruden as their primary goal-kicker (which they are) they should be more than happy to have Barrett.....

I forgot to mention in my analysis I though Aaron Smith's box kicking was very accurate this match. The AB's chasers weren't winning the ball cleanly, but almost every one of his kicks was contestable, and Pumas player was put under a lot of pressure when/if they caught it...

 

[William18]

I agree re Barrett. He had a poor game but his goal kicking is normally of an acceptable level for test match rugby. In past seasons Cruden has kicked as high as 90% in Super Rugby. I think the 68% was more of an aberration.

The Aaron Smith box kick with Savea chasing is one of the most effective things in world rugby. So much pressure on the opposition. The kicks are good but it's the chasing by players like Savea which is crucial.

 

[squirrel]

Barrett's striking of the ball looked poor which is the issue for me, it wasn't like he was just missing the post's with well connected strikes these kicks looked loopy and gutless.

 

[Darwin]

I agree re Barrett. He had a poor game but his goal kicking is normally of an acceptable level for test match rugby. In past seasons Cruden has kicked as high as 90% in Super Rugby. I think the 68% was more of an aberration.

Cruden has had a couple of good seasons of goal-kicking at Super Rugby level (kicking at around 80%, not quite 90%), but his goal-kicking hasn't been that great for the last couple of seasons (injuries have almost certainly played a part). Here are his Super Rugby kicking stats: 2010 (12/21 - 57%), 2011 (36/45 - 80%), 2012 (93/120 - 78%), 2013 (34/49 - 69%), 2014 (40/59 - 68%). Overall he has kicked 215/294 (73%). Acceptable, but not outstanding.

Barrett has played a couple less seasons, but has has almost exactly the same number of shots at goal. He has been a very consistent throughout the years, with 73% in 2012, 74% in 2013, and 73% in 2014. Overall he has kicked 216/295 (73%) so almost exactly the same as Cruden!

Anyways I'm not really sure what my point is. I just found it interesting that they have such strikingly similar stats overall at Super Rugby level...

 

[nzlizard]

I forgot to mention in my analysis I though Aaron Smith's box kicking was very accurate this match. The AB's chasers weren't winning the ball cleanly, but almost every one of his kicks was contestable, and Pumas player was put under a lot of pressure when/if they caught it...

Something I think he was told to work on, a few years ago he couldn't box kick himself out of a box and now he is getting pretty good at it.

 

[goodNumber10]

My friend, we are well past the "aperro" hour and methinks you have been partaking too long............you are saying, in fact, that in games both home and away over a five (is it?) period neither France or England would beat one of the AB's, Boks, or Wallabies? Really?

I don't drink. but yes that's what i'm saying. In within the context of the rugby championship i think we'd be in the same position.

one off wins here and there are VERY different to playing test series and competitions like TRC where it's about consistent competition. Getting a big win in a knock out game int he world cup isn't the same, and i've seen nothing int he last three years (which is how long Argentina have been in it) that makes me feel France or England would have been racking up wins - or even getting one.

I agree re Barrett. He had a poor game

What? Barrett in those conditions gave an outstanding performance. the break, the little flick pass to Savea... he was excellent.

 

[smartcooky]

I agree re Barrett. He had a poor game

I have to assume you are only talking about his goal-kicking right? His general play at 10 was just outstanding!

 

[Tony Manx]

In within the context of the rugby championship i think we'd be in the same position. One off wins here and there are VERY different to playing test series and competitions like TRC where it's about consistent competition. Getting a big win in a knock out game int he world cup isn't the same, and i've seen nothing int he last three years (which is how long Argentina have been in it) that makes me feel France or England would have been racking up wins - or even getting one..

Excuse me if I disagree but it will never happen so all hypothetical !

 

[Kiwi_]

First post!

Enjoyed watching the Argentinian scrum, it's incredibly good. The one weakness is the AB's front row and a consistent kicker without Carter. Other than that you can't really complain too much, they're an incredible polished side with a great attitude from every single one of our players on the park. What a contrast to 10 years ago.

We got some calls our way, but had a lot against in the past. It evens out eventually, it just sucks it has to happen EVERY game. Rugby is like that though and every team receives bad calls or gains good calls. It's just the way sports is. I grow tired of reading the criticism.

 

[Gavin]

Barrett reminds me or Carlos Spencer. He is one quality lad but unfortunately his goal kicking let him down. NZ are looking good for 10s with Carter and the young ginger lad at the Blues

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

I thought Dagg wasnt up to all black standard. Bombed a certain try by putting too much on the pass to Ben Smith. He also knocked a ball on without any sort of pressure on him. He just looked a bit too unstable to be our fullback. I have no idea why they would move B Smith to the wing, if they were going to have Dagg in the side why not move him to the wing and leave Smith at fullback?

The game was ok, nothing spectacular but i felt after the woeful decision of not awarding the Pumas their charge down try, that the ref pretty much took the competitiveness out of the game. I mean, the Pumas were already on an uphill battle and then it just seemed that ref wanted to increase the gradient of that hill haha.

 

[nickdnz]

To be fair Argentina also got some very bad calls their way. Julian Savea being taken without the ball which likely stopped a try - while there was a bizarre moment where the referee basically prevented the All Blacks from getting a ball he got in the way of, blocking Aaron Smith and then not even awarding a scrum when he blatantly interfered with play. The result was a kick that brought play 40m down field.

 

[William18]

I don't drink. but yes that's what i'm saying. In within the context of the rugby championship i think we'd be in the same position.

one off wins here and there are VERY different to playing test series and competitions like TRC where it's about consistent competition. Getting a big win in a knock out game int he world cup isn't the same, and i've seen nothing int he last three years (which is how long Argentina have been in it) that makes me feel France or England would have been racking up wins - or even getting one.



What? Barrett in those conditions gave an outstanding performance. the break, the little flick pass to Savea... he was excellent.

I have to assume you are only talking about his goal-kicking right? His general play at 10 was just outstanding!

Yeah, sorry. Just in reference to the goal kicking.

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah Barrett's goal kicking was just scary yesterday. It's okay to miss or have a bad game every once in a while, but when the kicks are that easy, and kicked THAT wide, and twice in a row the same easy kick just as wide both times, I'm wondering wtf he's doing on the pitch kicking for the New Zealand All-Blacks. So unless this was an absolute freak accident and he's usually 15x better, this is worrying and I don't want that guy taking responsibility when it's RWC time in a year for my team.

First post!

Enjoyed watching the Argentinian scrum, it's incredibly good. The one weakness is the AB's front row and a consistent kicker without Carter. Other than that you can't really complain too much, they're an incredible polished side with a great attitude from every single one of our players on the park. What a contrast to 10 years ago.

I agree with that. Those are the two things. Looking at Cruden's kicking % stats I'm a bit surprised, as he just doesn't look like a sound kicker to me. I've seen him miss a lot as an AB, and it's often from the same points (slightly on the right for e.g.) and his kick is the flattest thing I've ever seen, no arc on his kicks...plus he doesn't seem to have a lot of range or force on those kicks either.
If I were a NZ'er, those would be the two areas I'd be concerned with, and I wouldn't be as comfortable with these two as all the rest.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Barrett reminds me or Carlos Spencer. He is one quality lad but unfortunately his goal kicking let him down. NZ are looking good for 10s with Carter and the young ginger lad at the Blues

Carlos was a mercurial player of rare and special talent and he was excellent at kicking the ball out of hand, I was a big fan... however he was undeniably 'a bit random' and prone to throwing unnecessary wild passes that inevitably backfired at crucial times (the long pass intercepted by Mortlock when we were camped on the Aussie line at the 2003 RWC semi final springs to mind) he was a joy to watch for his skills and talent but Barrett is so much more reliable, genuinely pacey and he 'produces quality constantly'. I'm already a big fan and the kid has years ahead of him.

 

[squirrel]

I think people are a touch harsh on Carlos for that pass, it was a great read by Mortlock which probably stopped one of the ABs brown brothers from scoring in the corner, sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't, the next year he threw a great pass for Howlett to score in the corner to beat the Boks, don't know why I'm defending him cos I think the guy was a prick but I guess I'm not as biased as saintly nick likes to accuse me of.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Barrett is an incredible 10. He has the lot with ball in hand, I think that he is the best running 10 in the world with Quade Cooper, and i believe that he is worth what he misses in kicks with tries. The savea try is just incredible with the delayed pass and the weight is perfect that most will not make.

 

[Darwin]

yeah Barrett's goal kicking was just scary yesterday. It's okay to miss or have a bad game every once in a while, but when the kicks are that easy, and kicked THAT wide, and twice in a row the same easy kick just as wide both times, I'm wondering wtf he's doing on the pitch kicking for the New Zealand All-Blacks. So unless this was an absolute freak accident and he's usually 15x better, this is worrying and I don't want that guy taking responsibility when it's RWC time in a year for my team.

Barrett's goal-kicking is usually "15x better" so it isn't too worrying

That is the worst I have ever seen him kick, and I believe a lot of it may have been down to the ankle issues he was having late last week, which was the reason Dagg rather than Barrett was kicking to touch from penalties. I have no doubt his kicking will be substantially better next match.

I agree with that. Those are the two things. Looking at Cruden's kicking % stats I'm a bit surprised, as he just doesn't look like a sound kicker to me. I've seen him miss a lot as an AB, and it's often from the same points (slightly on the right for e.g.) and his kick is the flattest thing I've ever seen, no arc on his kicks...plus he doesn't seem to have a lot of range or force on those kicks either.
If I were a NZ'er, those would be the two areas I'd be concerned with, and I wouldn't be as comfortable with these two as all the rest.

Cruden's kicking is flat, and he doesn't get a lot of distance (40m max), but it is reasonably accurate. I had a quick look through his kicking stats at test level (collated from here). He has kicked 91/120 at test level - 76% - which is IMO an acceptable level. That certainly isn't in the same realms of Halfpenny, Steyn etc, but he isn't a liability in this regard. Does it concern me we don't have a world class goal-kicker? Slightly. The AB's game-plan does revolve somewhat about accumulating points and building scoreboard pressure, so we do need someone who can reliably accumulate points. Having a goal-kicker averaging 85%+ would be ideal, but I would rather have Cruden with all his skills kicking at ~75% than a Morne Steyn (with all his "skills") kicking at 90%

In terms of the front row, again I do agree it is a weaker area for NZ, but I won't be losing too much sleep thinking about it. For me our lack of depth is a bigger concern that our starting front row. Despite missing out first choice LH we actually held up pretty well at times against the Pumas (unlike South Africa before us). Obviously Argentina won the scrum battle, but we certainly weren't destroyed - 2/4 of our tries were directly from scrums! A front-row of Woodcock, Coles, and Owen Franks can hold it's own against most sides. If one of these starters are injured we are in a bit more trouble though. Crockett did ok against Argentina, but I still worry he will be penalised every scrum he packs down in. Moody made a good impact from the bench, but is still very inexperienced at this level. On the TH side Charlie Faumuina - our anointed backup to Owen Franks - has been disappointing and recently dropped from the bench due to lack of fitness. Ben Franks did well against Argentina but I still think he is better on the LH side, and he does have discipline issues. At hooker Coles is backed up by the 102 year-old Keven Mealamu, followed by Nathan Harris. I would love to point out he strengths and weaknesses of Harris but I don't know if anyone has actually seen him play before (I think he has a total of 4 starts at Super rugby level).

 

[smartcooky]

To be fair Argentina also got some very bad calls their way. Julian Savea being taken without the ball which likely stopped a try - while there was a bizarre moment where the referee basically prevented the All Blacks from getting a ball he got in the way of, blocking Aaron Smith and then not even awarding a scrum when he blatantly interfered with play. The result was a kick that brought play 40m down field.

To be fair regarding the Law as regards to the referee getting in the way, there is no Law that allows him to stop play of he gets in the way of play, only if the ball actually touches him.

[TEXTAREA]6.A.10 THE BALL TOUCHING THE REFEREE
(a) If the ball or the ball carrier touches the referee and neither team gains an advantage, play
continues. If either team gains an advantage in the field of play, the referee orders a scrum
and the team that last played the ball has the throw-in.

(b) If either team gains an advantage in in-goal, if the ball is in possession of an attacking
player the referee awards a try where the contact took place.

(c) If either team gains an advantage in in-goal, if the ball is in possession of a defending
player, the referee awards a touch down where the contact took place.[/TEXTAREA]

There was also another incident where all of the TO4 got it wrong. They penalised Savea for a late tackle when the Pumas receiver saw him coming and batted the ball on instead of catching it. Savea hit him a millisecond later. There is no way that can be called a late tackle. Savea was committed to tackle a player he reasonably expected to become the ball carrier at the time he tackles. He was not to know that the player would bat the ball on. Call this a late tackle, and it will make it very easy for players to "buy" a penalty.

 

[Larksea]

Argentina have picked up a Draw with the Boks and have almost beaten them a couple of times. Springboks have needed intercept trys/against the run of play to save games against Argi. I think its only a matter of time till they pick up a win against AUS or SA and they can pick up home bonus points against the All Blacks.

Good Game, I don't think all the bad calls were against the Argi's, remember the refs missed a blatant early tackle on Savea early in the game that probably saved a try.

As for that knock on/charge down.

Maybe smartcooky or someone with better nose for the rules can clear it up but I think there is a difference between a "charge down" when a player actually only tries to block the ball and not catch it and if a player actually tries to catch a kick but only knocks it forward. Maybe I need to look at it again but to me he looked like he was actually trying to catch it and knocked it on, he was not going for a charge down.

I thought Barrett was fantastic, apart from his kicking obviously. Conditions must have been tricky Slade came on a missed on from the same spot Barrett had been missing them.

Dagg was up and down, first min of the game he didn't commit to a high ball that I'd bet my life Ben Smith would have done everything to Nail. He made some really strong runs but also made a couple knock ons and totally butchered a pass that would have allowed Ben Smith to score.

Probably Ben Smiths quietest test, nothing wrong with that I guess play just didn't go his down that side. Actually it was a quiet game for a lot of All Blacks who were mostly solid while Barrett and Savea were the stars. And generally defense was superb.

No Messam or Sam Whitelock for the next few games. Locks are running low, Thrush is likely to start and Luatua to cover lock from the bench. Sam cane to start and McCaw to move to 6, Maybe Matt Todd to get a Bench slot? Or maybe someone like Shields or Luke Whitelock, Vito has been recovering from injury as well I think?

on a side note I thought Thrush did a good job when he came on.

 

[smartcooky]

As for that knock on/charge down.

Maybe smartcooky or someone with better nose for the rules can clear it up but I think there is a difference between a "charge down" when a player actually only tries to block the ball and not catch it and if a player actually tries to catch a kick but only knocks it forward. Maybe I need to look at it again but to me he looked like he was actually trying to catch it and knocked it on, he was not going for a charge down.

This is another decision that I thought he got wrong. This looks like a charge-down to me. I was taught the key to assessing a charge down is;

"did the opponent try to block the kick before or as it was made, or did he react to the kick after it was made?"

Before/As = charge down
After = knock forward

In this case, the Pumas player clearly has his arms up to block the kick before its made.

For mine, that is a charge down all day long. There is no way that the Pumas player was trying to catch the ball, so if the referee decides this was a knock-on, then it can only be intentional, therefore a penalty.

At the very least, he should have gone to the TMO.

 

[nickdnz]

To be fair regarding the Law as regards to the referee getting in the way, there is no Law that allows him to stop play of he gets in the way of play, only if the ball actually touches him.

[TEXTAREA]6.A.10 THE BALL TOUCHING THE REFEREE
(a) If the ball or the ball carrier touches the referee and neither team gains an advantage, play
continues. If either team gains an advantage in the field of play, the referee orders a scrum
and the team that last played the ball has the throw-in.

(b) If either team gains an advantage in in-goal, if the ball is in possession of an attacking
player the referee awards a try where the contact took place.

(c) If either team gains an advantage in in-goal, if the ball is in possession of a defending
player, the referee awards a touch down where the contact took place.[/TEXTAREA]

There was also another incident where all of the TO4 got it wrong. They penalised Savea for a late tackle when the Pumas receiver saw him coming and batted the ball on instead of catching it. Savea hit him a millisecond later. There is no way that can be called a late tackle. Savea was committed to tackle a player he reasonably expected to become the ball carrier at the time he tackles. He was not to know that the player would bat the ball on. Call this a late tackle, and it will make it very easy for players to "buy" a penalty.

I was under the impression he did touch the ball whilst skipping over it.

 

[Larksea]

on Cruden vs. barrett goal kicking its worth also considering that barrett has considerably more range than Cruden. In Barretts kicking record he will have taken a lot of kicks that Cruden would not even attempt.

Also note Barrett has been carring an injury to his right ankle since the aussie tests.