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[2016 Super Rugby] Jaguares vs. Sharks (Round 12) 14/05/2016

  1. Results were below what most of us expected.
  2. You could argue that getting used to a new competition will take a toll on the team. Sure, i can buy that. But that is something we knew about in advance and had all the resources to either prevent from happening, or at the very least, take actions in order to minimize the consequences. We did not.
  3. So it boils down to one of two things: either we didn't know what we were getting into, or we did and managed it poorly. Either way, it's our own bloody fault.

1. I wont lie i also had big expectations for the Jaguares but i never believed that they would make the playoffs. But perhaps expectations were too high for a first season. Lets face it SA, NZ, AU, ARG were the best nations at the last world cup. But between the 4 of us Argentina as good as they are, is probably the weakest of the bunch at this point in time. They are playing other Super franchises that is made up of players representing these nations. So if the Jaguares came into this competition and immediately made the playoffs then i would go and bet on the Argentine national side to win the rugby championship by some margin.
2. Many of the other teams also know what to expect. They also plan for different possibilities. If you take the Cheetahs as an example, they and the rest of us knew that their defence was a weak point going into the tournament it has been for years. Surely they worked on it but still they have not really succeeded in addressing this problem. You might have a plan but thats not to say it will work.
3. I think its a bit of both.
 
Thanks for the comments.

How can you know what you are getting yourself into, when you have no idea on what will happen.
It's not as if this is a completely new competition built from scratch or as if we are playing a different sport. I don't see many other teams coming up with the plethora of excuses we've used. Maybe i've missed them, maybe. Still, I don't see the chiefs, highlanders or the lions changing half the starting XV from game to another just to rotate players (i'm sure someone will come up with a counter example but you get my point).
Those things matter and it could have been quite easy to prepare for that. For the lack of a better word, it looks amateurish. That is what ****** me off. I am 100% sure having someone who knows the teams in SR, is familiar with how travelling affects the teams in the competition and is more used to SR refs would have been able to provide us with invaluable insights.

If you tell me we are trying to play a more open style and that's why we are dropping the balls, fair enough. I see the plan, i can understand it won't happen overnight and even if i disagree with the plan itself, i can see the logic behind it. I don't see the logic here.
I'm willing to accept it might be a communication thing, meaning there is a plan, they just haven't told us what that is. I'd love to know what that is thou.

As stated above this year's tournament is a whole new kettle of fish that everyone needs to adapt to. There is not one single team that has remained unbeaten. To put blame solely on the coaching staff is IMHO a bit shortsighted. This is just as an overwhelming experience for them as it is for the players.
I understand experience is a big part of it, but lets be honest, you want to speed up the learning curve as much as you can. I don't think we did that.
I can understand what happened and even hypothesize why it happened, but i believe we could have done better, much better.

When writers made predictions prior to this year's tournament, a lot of things were said, I doubt many of those remarks will still be echoed today. Many people said that the Kings won't win a single game this year, and already they have proven them wrong. Many said that the Bulls won't be playoff contenders, yet they are still in the hunt. The list goes on. I just think some Jaguares fans are way too critical of their team and expect way too much of them too early. Look at the Rebels, it has taken them a fair while to become competitive and its only now that they show some promise and could potentially be ***le contenders.
I've watched probably 2-3 games on average per round. Jaguares are, by far, the most inconsistent team of the tournament. It's not even a contest.
The gap between our best performance and our worst is simply astronomical. This is speculation (hard to demonstrate conclusively), but i'm pretty sure the gap between potential and actual results is enormous too. For that, i have to blame management. It's part of their job description. I could let it slide if it had been a one-off thing, but our performance had more ups and downs than a bloody roller coaster. That is just not good enough.

Another thing that i didn't like was that, regardless of the performance, the way we planned games appeared to be the same regardless of the opposition.
We got to the point where a considerable number of our own supporters were saying "kick the bloody ball for a change". That's a new one for us, trust me. We became predictable, everyone knew what we were going to do and more often than not, had a plan to stop it. We kept doing the same thing again and again and again, regardless of the results.
That's 100% the coaching staff's fault. You need to have a plan B. We clearly did not.

And just to be crystal clear, i wasn't expecting them to win the damn thing on their first attempt. I (honestly) expected them to be fighting for a spot in the playoffs till the last round. It was clear to me we were out after our 4th game. That's how big the gap was.

I know i'm being critical, maybe a bit too much. I'm venting a bit but i sincerely believe we missed a good opportunity to make a dent here. I don't think the staff should be sacked. I'm saying their grace period is over. They needed to learn? Fine, they've had 9 games. Time to get some points on the board.
Looking forward, i'll probably judge them based mostly on 3 games. Sharks at home, and Lions away and at home. I think those three should be a ballpark measure of where we should stand. Let's see if we do.
Cheers.
 
ffs another injury in training, these people are made of glass... and just when Moroni is out with the sevens.


Next week: Creevy and Sánchez ruled out because they wish to visit their grandmas.
 
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are the jaguares the worst coached side ever?

You have the basis of a squad that can make a rwc sf, competing with nz, aus and sa, yet struggle to put away teams like the cheetahs, sunwolves etc.

It can't be the players, so it has to be the coaches? Or am i wrong?

yes!!!! You are correct.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to be repetitive with this topic, but I've to insist: Imhoff, Ayerza, Cubelli, Fernández Lobbe, Bosch, Figallo...

Sorry to be also repetitive: none of this matters! The Jags still have more international players in their squad than any other team! They may not be the Pumas from the RWC, but they WILL be the Pumas in the upcoming Rugby Championship. No excuses, from Day 1 vs Cheetahs to last day vs Kings, this international team has been the worst/second worst squad in Super Rugby and that includes the narrow losses to the Chiefs, Sharks etc. Close loses are still loses.
 
They may not be the Pumas from the RWC, but they WILL be the Pumas in the upcoming Rugby Championship.

I know, but the users are comparing the team to RWC one, not to the future team. We'll be demolished this year in TRC, it'll take at least 2 years to be competitive again.
 
I like that the Argentine fans are so passionate about this team as well as performance and looking towards the future. You guys should keep it up. It will only strengthen this team for the future.

With some of the remarks above, I can say this. The rotation of a squad is a very complex thing to get right, some coaches rotates certain players weekly (one week start, next week sub), others prefer to swap players for certain matches or opposition. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The Jaguares and the Sunwolves are something completely new to SR, both as teams as well as players and regions. Depth will always be a problem in the beginning of a franchise, and it will get better. Perhaps the Jaguares should consider getting 3 or 4 players who aren't Argentine players, just to start making the depth of the squad a little better. Perhaps they can do the same as what the Cheetahs have with one of the Japanese teams where they trade players during certain periods and can use them if they want to.
 
While it might be a good idea to get outside help with SR experience in I seem to remember something along the lines that only players available to the Jaguares will be eligible for the Pumas? That pretty much puts an end to any idea of getting a foreigner in for the Jaguares as you'd be limiting your player pool for the Pumas drastically.
 
While it might be a good idea to get outside help with SR experience in I seem to remember something along the lines that only players available to the Jaguares will be eligible for the Pumas? That pretty much puts an end to any idea of getting a foreigner in for the Jaguares as you'd be limiting your player pool for the Pumas drastically.

I get that, but you can't have your bread buttered on both sides. While I love the idea of patriotism that the Jaguares is basically the Pumas' new feeder team, you can't expect this team to then be competitive off the bat in a tournament their team has never played in before!

Look at what happened to the Pumas in their first year of the Rugby Championship...

That is why I suggested 3 or 4 players. Surely 3 or 4 players in a squad of 31 won't be that a bad idea. And if players from Argentina can play for other SR teams like they have done and are doing currently (Sharks, Kings, Brumbies), why not take that leap??
 
I know, but the users are comparing the team to RWC one, not to the future team. We'll be demolished this year in TRC, it'll take at least 2 years to be competitive again.

Actually, I don't entirely agree with this. As bad as the Jags are, I expect the Pumas to do ok this year - they are good. I do need to qualify that by saying they would be helped if they actually had as many home games as all the other teams in the RC which, of course this year, they do not. A scandalous decision by the UAR to play a home game in London. The more I look in as an outsider, the more I think that the UAR wants the Jags and Pumas to fail.

Also, I think the idea of foreign players playing in Argentina is an excellent one; why not? I do think though that it requires another franchise so that you can have a mix of foreign and domestic players. It works here in Ireland, to a lesser extent in Wales. Lets hope the Jags finish the season strongly anyway.
 
I like that the Argentine fans are so passionate about this team as well as performance and looking towards the future. You guys should keep it up. It will only strengthen this team for the future.

With some of the remarks above, I can say this. The rotation of a squad is a very complex thing to get right, some coaches rotates certain players weekly (one week start, next week sub), others prefer to swap players for certain matches or opposition. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The Jaguares and the Sunwolves are something completely new to SR, both as teams as well as players and regions. Depth will always be a problem in the beginning of a franchise, and it will get better. Perhaps the Jaguares should consider getting 3 or 4 players who aren't Argentine players, just to start making the depth of the squad a little better. Perhaps they can do the same as what the Cheetahs have with one of the Japanese teams where they trade players during certain periods and can use them if they want to.

I'd say your suggestion of including a few non-Argentine players is a sound one, if the further expansion of Super Rugby means that Argentina gets a second team as this would allow more places and chances for players to make the Pumas, with the imports not blocking the pathways for the local talent as much.

As a general comment on the expected strength of the Jaguares prior to the season commencing, I admit I though their results would be better, but I expected they'd dominate at the set pieces more than they have. I think they'll undoubtedly be stronger as the years go on, as they should retain the bulk of their squad, and gel as a team better
 
I get that, but you can't have your bread buttered on both sides. While I love the idea of patriotism that the Jaguares is basically the Pumas' new feeder team, you can't expect this team to then be competitive off the bat in a tournament their team has never played in before!

Look at what happened to the Pumas in their first year of the Rugby Championship...

That is why I suggested 3 or 4 players. Surely 3 or 4 players in a squad of 31 won't be that a bad idea. And if players from Argentina can play for other SR teams like they have done and are doing currently (Sharks, Kings, Brumbies), why not take that leap??

I really like your idea of including foreign players with SR experience for the Jaguares if the Jaguares were an isolated team but they're not, they are the direct feeder into the Pumas. And the only team. If Argentina had 2 teams that'd be fantastic and would open up those spots but I expect we'll only see the Jaguares as an Argentine representative for a couple of seasons more.

That said they havn't performed poorly and could've very easily been 12 log points up but for miniscule margins of error where they had fallen on the side of error. Two of those instances were against the SA and (until recently) NZ log leaders. They've also conceded two tries less per game in their first year than next best debutant. I have every reason to believe we'll see something more in line with general expectations coming from the Jaguares as soon as next year.
 
Jaguares starting XV:

1-Santiago García Botta
2-Agustín Creevy (c)
3-Ramiro Herrera
4-Matías Alemanno
5-Tomás Lavanini
6-Pablo Matera
7-Javier Ortega Desio
8-Leonardo Senatore
9-Martín Landajo
10-Nicolás Sanchez
11-Manuel Montero
12-Juan Martín Hernández
13-Matías Orlando
14-Emiliano Boffelli
15-Joaquín Tuculet

Replacements:

16-Julián Montoya, 17-Facundo Gigena, 18-Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19-Guido Petti, 20-Facundo Isa, 21-Gonzalo Bertranou, 22-Santiago González Iglesias, 23-Lucas González Amorosino.
 
So, for the sake of that ****ty S7 we lost 2 players. Now we have one down and we have to make due with some asshat. I hope next year they take this competition seriously.
 
Jaguares starting XV:

1-Santiago García Botta
2-Agustín Creevy (c)
3-Ramiro Herrera
4-Matías Alemanno
5-Tomás Lavanini
6-Pablo Matera
7-Javier Ortega Desio
8-Leonardo Senatore
9-Martín Landajo
10-Nicolás Sanchez
11-Manuel Montero
12-Juan Martín Hernández
13-Matías Orlando
14-Emiliano Boffelli
15-Joaquín Tuculet

Replacements:

16-Julián Montoya, 17-Facundo Gigena, 18-Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19-Guido Petti, 20-Facundo Isa, 21-Gonzalo Bertranou, 22-Santiago González Iglesias, 23-Lucas González Amorosino.

It's a pretty decent squad. With Orlando, Gigena and Bertranou still needing to prove if they are up to the required level, IMHO. Other possible problem is González Iglesias as 10/12 replacement. Is not that he can't play, but the González Iglesias-Orlando tandem sounds weak for me.
 
Well the Sharks have had the more successful season thus far, and they are currently on their best form of the tournament. That said they have had a truly horrific traveling schedule lately, coming from NZ for one game at home and then straight off to Argentina (playing at one of the most hostile venues a team can play at).

I'd say the Sharks should win this one, but it does depend on which Jaguares team shows up. Also I'm not to sure if starting Lambie this round was the best move, seems like messing with a winning formula at the moment.

Obviously the Jags have been punching below their weight this season, so by that logic and the Sharks being on good form I'd say Sharks by 7.
 
Sharks will win

Jags need to keep it simple next year, that rotation boll0cks cost them a lot of momentum and chemistry.
 
Rugby in Colombia.

Are the Jaguares the worst coached side ever?

You have the basis of a squad that can make a RWC SF, competing with NZ, AUS and SA, yet struggle to put away teams like the Cheetahs, Sunwolves etc.

It can't be the players, so it has to be the coaches? Or am I wrong?

Off thread, but wonder if you are involved in rugby in Colombia?
There is a state programme for disadvantaged urban kids to learn rugby, and potentially travel to partner countries. I am in the process of making introductions to relevant people in Wellington.
Any help with coaching, management, mentoring.....
 
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