[2021 Six Nations] Ireland v England (20/03/2021)

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Not sure Hill's a good example. In and around the squad 3 years ago, fist cap in Summer 2018; then dropped, and worked on his work-ons.
Back in and around the squad 2020, 2nd cap Autumn 2020, when he played 8 out of the next 9 tests.


Unless you mean Ted Hill of course, who's in a position of real strength for England, such that some very good players were always going to miss out (same goes for Simmonds). While he (and Simmonds, and Smith, and...) have all improved since their time involved with the squads, the question remains - have they improved in the way that Eddie wants them to?
The "Good player missing out" I've obviousy seen the most of, is Mercer - who's also improved since his time with England, but not at the bit we know Eddie places above (almost) all else... so he's not even mentioned in dispatches anymore

I meant Ted yeah

 

[Wendigo7]

Think there's something being missed here.

I don't believe Odogwu is in the squad as a centre. He's in the squad being looked at as winger only. Therefore, why would he be selected when our wingers are playing so well?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This is exactly it tbf - it creates a situation where someone like marchant in this example can come into the squad last minute and be there with 100% trust of his ethic, work rate, understanding and buy in etc. If odogwu has proved that to Eddie he will get a chance eventually.

The only criticism of that method is that Eddie doesn't seem, publically at least, to acknowledge that players can change over time - see all the players who have come in as an apprentice/new player and been left by the wayside, depsite them drastically improving outwith of the England squad - Smith, Simmonds, Hill etc

If Jones doesn't like what he sees at any point - apprentice or otherwise - there's very seldom a way back in even if they've improved out of sight.

 

[g6mcg]

Is Daly any better tackling at 13? As an outside back he really looks like an amateur player who's scared of tackling and positions themselves poorly so they don't have to make it. And yes, of course I've done that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't believe Odogwu is in the squad as a centre

Nah, he was named as a centre

 

[Which Tyler]

If Jones doesn't like what he sees at any point - apprentice or otherwise - there's very seldom a way back in even if they've improved out of sight.

Yup - I'm struggling to think of one who isn't Jonny Hill

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Think there's something being missed here.

I don't believe Odogwu is in the squad as a centre. He's in the squad being looked at as winger only. Therefore, why would he be selected when our wingers are playing so well?

It was his performances at centre though that really caught the eye though?

And Marchant will presumably be covering back 3 despite hardly ever playing there. If Odogwu's being looked at as wing that's a definite kick in the teeth.

If Jones didn't want to play him in this 6N then fine. I have no quarrel with that, but then he shouldn't have picked him for this squad when he had so little flexibility to change players.

 

[Wasps92]

I honestly thought we'd see Lawrence at OC. *sigh*

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Jones didn't want to play him in this 6N then fine. I have no quarrel with that, but then he shouldn't have picked him for this squad when he had so little flexibility to change players.

Aye, that's the bit that annoys me - if it was about building depth of reserve players then great
But Odogwu is only just breaking into real first choice/first team rugby atm - taking him away from that, knowing he won't play a game for 2.5months, just seems counter intuitive to his development as a player.
No doubt being in camp will be beneficial, but more beneficial than actually playing the game?

To me it looks like EJ didn't want Italy to cap him this 6N, but wanted to give him recognition with a potential eye on capping him in the summer - which I do get...but as above, is dire for his development as a player


This is more a comment about EJs whole 6N rather than this game selection, though - Italy is where Odogwu should've gotten a look in, instead we went for a 6-2 bench split

 

[Jashay]

One thing that could happen is a Lawrence-Marchant midfield at some point in the game. If we're somehow 50+ points up against Ireland I could see him giving that combo at least 12 seconds.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Aye, that's the bit that annoys me - if it was about building depth of reserve players then great
But Odogwu is only just breaking into real first choice/first team rugby atm - taking him away from that, knowing he won't play a game for 2.5months, just seems counter intuitive to his development as a player.
No doubt being in camp will be beneficial, but more beneficial than actually playing the game?

To me it looks like EJ didn't want Italy to cap him this 6N, but wanted to give him recognition with a potential eye on capping him in the summer - which I do get...but as above, is dire for his development as a player


This is more a comment about EJs whole 6N rather than this game selection, though - Italy is where Odogwu should've gotten a look in, instead we went for a 6-2 bench split

At this stage I genuinely believe Jones thinks he knows better than everyone else and that just being in the England camp will surpass playing actual games for Wasps.

I can't understand Jones' selection, 2 centres on the bench, putting our underperformer of the tournament straight back into the squad at centre, where he hasn't played for ages, so one of the centres with very few England caps can cover the whole back 3, where they haven't played? It makes no sense. Farrell won't be subbed off so that means if both Marchant and Lawrence do play, the most likely outcome is 1 of them replaces Daly and the other Malins. I don't care what is said about possible justification for Jones' decisions tactically, his man management is **** poor.

Now IF Farrell actually gets subbed and we have Ford - Lawrence - Marchant lineup at some point, that would be interesting and I could see the logic in trying that out, but that's not going to happen so I can't see the logic at all.

 

[ncurd]

Now IF Farrell actually gets subbed.

Won't happen unless they break his leg, even then I'm uncovinced.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Won't happen unless they break his leg, even then I'm uncovinced.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading an interview with Andrew Sheridan yesterday, and he said he played all his games on the '05 Lions tour with a broken leg - he'd injured (what he thought was) his ankle playing for Sale, but scans came back showing no damage.
Had another scan after the tour and it showed he'd broken his fibia just above where they'd initially scanned
The madman

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

At this stage I genuinely believe Jones thinks he knows better than everyone else and that just being in the England camp will surpass playing actual games for Wasps.

I can't understand Jones' selection, 2 centres on the bench, putting our underperformer of the tournament straight back into the squad at centre, where he hasn't played for ages, so one of the centres with very few England caps can cover the whole back 3, where they haven't played? It makes no sense. Farrell won't be subbed off so that means if both Marchant and Lawrence do play, the most likely outcome is 1 of them replaces Daly and the other Malins. I don't care what is said about possible justification for Jones' decisions tactically, his man management is **** poor.

Now IF Farrell actually gets subbed and we have Ford - Lawrence - Marchant lineup at some point, that would be interesting and I could see the logic in trying that out, but that's not going to happen so I can't see the logic at all.

I would be surprised if Daly came off - more likely that the final 90 seconds of the game will be Robson - Faz - Lawrence - Marchant with a back 3 of May - Daly - Watson.

Marchant is very good on the wing btw - played mostly on the Wing for the blues and has featured for us there a few times since coming back. There is a part of me that could see us ending with

Robson - Faz - Lawrence - Daly
May Watson Marchant


Wouldn't be unhappy with that tbh

 

[Makeshift10]

I would think Farrell covers 10, Lawrence covers 12, Marchant Covers 13 /14 and Daly covers 11 / 15.

Daly is the closest like for like replacement for Slade. If you ignore the fact Marchant has leapfrogged Odogwu, it's actually a pretty decent starting line up with everyone in their best spots and good cover for all positions either on field or from the bench.

As for Marchant leapfrogging Odogwu. Could be any number of legitimate factors. PO's trained like a clown, has a slight ****le EJ doesn't want to risk, a lack of fitness as EJ's not given him the time he planned after being derailed by Scotland, concerns about his aerial ability v Ireland, has spotted a defensive weakness he thinks will be exposed at International level if not worked on before debut, or having looked at him closely for 2 months EJ or JM simply don't think he's up to it.

None of those would be the end of the world or failings in EJ. The only downside would be if the reason has not been communicated to Paolo. But he might have been given a few work ons, kept fully in the picture and be absolutely buzzing from a positive first taste of experience in England camp for all we know.

 

[big ginger 8]

Stockdale not playing for Ullster this weekend anyway.

 

[Jakedood]

Stockdale not playing for Ullster this weekend anyway.

Tingling

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

None of those would be the end of the world or failings in EJ. The only downside would be if the reason has not been communicated to Paolo. But he might have been given a few work ons, kept fully in the picture and be absolutely buzzing from a positive first taste of experience in England camp for all we know.

They become failings in EJ if there are legitimate reasons, he goes away to work on them but EJ doesn't care any more. I can't think of a single player who fell out of favour with EJ who then came back in to favour. As has been mentioned, being an apprentice is almost a guaranteed way to never get selected for the team. If you are brought in to the England camp as anything less than someone who is at least on the bench for their very first game, you are never getting in.

 

[munstermuffin]

Stockdale not playing for Ullster this weekend anyway.

Hard to call as alot just resting guys too butbwepl Stockdale not a guy who needs a rest but was he officially added to Irish squad. Just seen POM but may have just missed it

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would think Farrell covers 10, Lawrence covers 12, Marchant Covers 13 /14 and Daly covers 11 / 15.

Daly is the closest like for like replacement for Slade. If you ignore the fact Marchant has leapfrogged Odogwu, it's actually a pretty decent starting line up with everyone in their best spots and good cover for all positions either on field or from the bench.

As for Marchant leapfrogging Odogwu. Could be any number of legitimate factors. PO's trained like a clown, has a slight ****le EJ doesn't want to risk, a lack of fitness as EJ's not given him the time he planned after being derailed by Scotland, concerns about his aerial ability v Ireland, has spotted a defensive weakness he thinks will be exposed at International level if not worked on before debut, or having looked at him closely for 2 months EJ or JM simply don't think he's up to it.

None of those would be the end of the world or failings in EJ. The only downside would be if the reason has not been communicated to Paolo. But he might have been given a few work ons, kept fully in the picture and be absolutely buzzing from a positive first taste of experience in England camp for all we know.

He might. But equally he might not or may have had a reality check.

We're outsiders looking in so we don't know. But lets assume he's fit - presumably we'd have heard if he isn't. He knows Slade is currently 1st choice 13 and irrespective of what's been said Marchant (same age) has come in as wing / 13 above him. He'll also know that Manu will play if fit (Jones First Law of Favourites) and there's a seasoned international in JJ too. Plus Daly. If he didn't get a break at 13 in this window he may have to wait a fair while to get a proper look in there.

Different story on the wing - May and Watson are established and injury permitting should be around through to 23. The next in line are less clear, but Odogwu has made his mark moving infield and apparently some defensive frailties had been identified at club level. Thorley and Coka will hopefully come good and there's always Daly (JFLoF again). Hassell-Collins and others will emerge.

I'm not saying Odogwu's the best thing since sliced bread but I don't like his treatment. He's 24 - not old, but not a pup either and barring injuries (which happen) there are no obvious openings in the Eng team for him pre 23. If he wants a decent international career, he may well conclude that Italy is his best bet. If he's thinking that way then I'm pleased he hasn't made it onto the pitch.