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[2022 Six Nations] Scotland vs England (05/02/22)

Would really have to be someone like Cockerill in the interim if that was too happen.

Honestly I feel like Andy Farrell could well be Eddie's successor potentially. His contract ends after the 2023 RWC.

I don't see Borthwick going yet unless he wins a couple trophies before hand.

the other prem coaches are either too young still (Sanderson and Skivington) or really don't seem the international type (McCall or Baxter)
 
Would really have to be someone like Cockerill in the interim if that was too happen.

Honestly I feel like Andy Farrell could well be Eddie's successor potentially. His contract ends after the 2023 RWC.

I don't see Borthwick going yet unless he wins a couple trophies before hand.

the other prem coaches are either too young still (Sanderson and Skivington) or really don't seem the international type (McCall or Baxter)
Faz & Catt v Leo & Stu 2027 World Cup Final is something I could get behind.

Although apparently Faz is extremely happy here and his and Catt's youngests are both about to start secondary school so an extension would be difficult for them to turn down.
 
and who would want to, under those circumstances?

Doubt many coaches would want to parachute in literally months before the biggest comp in the sport - doesn't exactly give you time to assess the side and make your tweaks and changes
Money talks….(not sure we've got as much as we did, mind and I'm not sure of the "who" either).

Agreed, although you're a hero if you get it right and it's all Jones fault if you don't. We saw the pretty immediate impact Jones had - it can be done if the players are of the right calibre.

If Jones can't point to significant progress in the rest of the 6N in at least 2 of results, performance and successful blooding of new players then his position should come under genuine pressure. If a decision does have to be made it should be made quickly.
 
I always had sympathy with LCD and England for him being out there - it was brilliant play by Scotland to create and exploit the mis-match - both in manipulating our defence, playing with too much speed for us to cover, and pin-point execution.
More on this bit, and the "quick" lineout etc etc.

 
and who would want to, under those circumstances?

Doubt many coaches would want to parachute in literally months before the biggest comp in the sport - doesn't exactly give you time to assess the side and make your tweaks and changes
Yeah, a very poisonous chalice
 
I think Jones' job has been saved by just how talented the squad actually is at times. If he was dealt a bit of a worse hand like other coach's have at times the results would be even poorer.
 
I mean it's the conundrum of English rugby though.
You get a large talented player pool but zero control outside a couple months a year.
 
I mean it's the conundrum of English rugby though.
You get a large talented player pool but zero control outside a couple months a year.
Added to which, there's always going to someone outside the squad you'll be criticised for omitting; and evidence will always be found to show that mistake.
 
Added to which, there's always going to someone outside the squad you'll be criticised for omitting; and evidence will always be found to show that mistake.

England's playing pool is big enough for there to be a lot of very good players outside the squad, so it's a matter of fine judgement which ones get picked and which are 'nearly men.'

It's also not big enough that there's an obvious world class player in every position.

The logical thing to do would be to identify the world class players and why they're world class, then design the rest of the team (using the 'very good players') around the strengths of the world class players already selected. Jones seems to want to pick a style which doesn't utilise the strengths of the players he's got and I find it baffling.

Honestly, I would have thought that any coach would relish the chance to jump in at this point, it's just that getting (say) Farrell and Edwards might not be possible at the moment.
 
The logical thing to do would be to identify the world class players and why they're world class, then design the rest of the team (using the 'very good players') around the strengths of the world class players already selected. Jones seems to want to pick a style which doesn't utilise the strengths of the players he's got and I find it baffling.
I think he does exactly that - it's just that he disagrees with many of us as to who our best players are, what their strengths are, and what works in modern rugby.

I can absolutely guarantee that he's not just playing by numbers, deliberately not selecting players he considers to be better, or providing a game plan he thinks his players aren't suited to. Equally, I can guarantee that he's not making substitutions because the play-book says "57 minutes = LHP replacement" - not that you're suggesting that, but plenty of people do.


It seems that once a coach loses popularity, they lose any benefit of the doubt whatsoever, and the very worst possible interpretation of any decision will automatically be assumed to be true. For example look at the criticism he's copped for replacing Smith for Ford - an entirely non-contraversial decision that pretty much any rugby coach would have made at the same point, but it's being used as an example of how he's lost the plot, doesn't know what he's doing, and in some cases, that he's deliberately hamstinging the team because of ego.
 
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I think he does exactly that - it's just that he disagrees with many of us as to who our best players are, what their strengths are, and what works in modern rugby.

I can absolutely guarantee that he's not just playing by numbers, deliberately not selecting players he considers to be better, or providing a game plan he thinks his players aren't suited to. Equally, I can guarantee that he's not making substitutions because the play-book says "57 minutes = LHP replacement" - not that you're suggesting that, but plenty of people do.


It seems that once a coach loses popularity, they lose any benefit of the doubt whatsoever, and the very worst possible interpretation of any decision will automatically be assumed to be true. For example look at the criticism he's copped for replacing Smith for Ford - an entirely non-contraversial decision that pretty much any rugby coach would have made at the same point, but it's being used as an example of how he's lost the plot, doesn't know what he's doing, and in some cases, that he's deliberately hamstinging the team because of ego.
Totally disagree on your last point

Do you really think that leading 17-10 after 63 minutes with the fly half having scored all the points and the team now on the front foot, that any other coach would have taken the fly half off if he wasn't injured? Really?

Would Townsend have taken Russell off, would Farrell have taken Sexton off, would Pivac have taken Biggar off? etc? Not a chance

I think people are missing the point on the Smith substitution. If someone is happy to see Ford at flyhalf, then they probably don't see an issue with the substitution. But within a game context it was completely baffling and Jones has been unable to adequately explain why he actually did it. When you have just increased your lead to 7 points and have all the momentum, and rugby is a game of momentum, it is bewildering to make the mass changes, of which Smith was part that he did.

I am not saying that LCD wouldn't have had his brain fart if Smith was on the pitch or that Smith wouldn't have shanked the kick like Ford did. But when England had just achieved ascendancy like they had and were looking likely to move further ahead, to fundamentally change the dynamic was plain daft
 
I think he does exactly that - it's just that he disagrees with many of us as to who our best players are, what their strengths are, and what works in modern rugby.

I can absolutely guarantee that he's not just playing by numbers, deliberately not selecting players he considers to be better, or providing a game plan he thinks his players aren't suited to. Equally, I can guarantee that he's not making substitutions because the play-book says "57 minutes = LHP replacement" - not that you're suggesting that, but plenty of people do.


It seems that once a coach loses popularity, they lose any benefit of the doubt whatsoever, and the very worst possible interpretation of any decision will automatically be assumed to be true. For example look at the criticism he's copped for replacing Smith for Ford - an entirely non-contraversial decision that pretty much any rugby coach would have made at the same point, but it's being used as an example of how he's lost the plot, doesn't know what he's doing, and in some cases, that he's deliberately hamstinging the team because of ego.

On the Smith/Ford substitution, it may not have hindered, but I can't see how it helped. Smith wasn't playing badly, he'd scored 17 more points than any other England player and has form for winning games in the last few minutes. He's also apparently in need of big match experience. Ford didn't do anything particularly well and also managed to strike one poor kick.

I'm sure you're right about Jones, he's really doing his best. Unfortunately, I'm really excited about the talented young players England have coming through (and think Smith is the best FH I've seen for England in my lifetime*) but they're being stifled by an overly-conservative system of coaching which is based on a fear of losing. If we were to finish 5th in the 6N last year and maybe 4th this year, I'd rather do it with some French-style running rugby.

If 'trying not to lose' results in wins, then it's acceptable. Once it results in defeat, it's a pretty bankrupt strategy.

All empires crumble. Jones' tenure peaked at the RWC semi final and has been downhill ever since. As an England supporter, I'd love to be proven wrong, but doing more of the same (players out of position, kick it up in the air and wait for a mistake, poor discipline) isn't going to beat the SH teams.

* Yes, better than WIlkinson. Maybe not in all ways, but Smith's defence is better than he gets credit for; I'm sure Quins fans will confirm that he often tries to rip the ball in the tackle. Apart from that, he runs, he passes, he kicks, he leads. We shouldn't waste him.
 
It's odd, because whilst it's a call I wouldn't have made, if Ford comes on and just sticks it in 3rd gear and we play out the last few minutes, then it's a good call - he can't see the future unfortunately.

But, it's a tight game and winning them in the red is Smith's party trick.

Jones said afterwards that he wanted to "lift the energy". That sounds to me like he just doesn't trust Smith and thinks that Ford coming on will inject a bit of positivity.
 
I think he does exactly that - it's just that he disagrees with many of us as to who our best players are, what their strengths are, and what works in modern rugby.

I can absolutely guarantee that he's not just playing by numbers, deliberately not selecting players he considers to be better, or providing a game plan he thinks his players aren't suited to. Equally, I can guarantee that he's not making substitutions because the play-book says "57 minutes = LHP replacement" - not that you're suggesting that, but plenty of people do.


It seems that once a coach loses popularity, they lose any benefit of the doubt whatsoever, and the very worst possible interpretation of any decision will automatically be assumed to be true. For example look at the criticism he's copped for replacing Smith for Ford - an entirely non-contraversial decision that pretty much any rugby coach would have made at the same point, but it's being used as an example of how he's lost the plot, doesn't know what he's doing, and in some cases, that he's deliberately hamstinging the team because of ego.

I agree with most of this and I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that an international rugby coach is picking his idea of the best team to win a match and making substitutions that he feels will drive the same outcome.

What I find frustrating with Jones is that he is incredibly stubborn with his views and seemingly reacts very badly to being challenged on them (see Brown, Care, Cipriani, Mitchell and high staff turnover in general). The problem with this is that many of his views are based on precedents that are either old-school or simply untrue. A recent example being when he stated that "Dan Carter always played his best rugby with Aaron Mauger at 12" as a reason to start Smith-Farrell. Carter and Mauger played together in those positions less than 10 times and only once in a year when DC won one of his World Player of the Year awards. He also said that Dan Carter only played in his first world cup in 2015 at the age of 35. He played in 3 WCs and was 33 in 2015, not 35.

Before you come at me for being anal or these examples just being Jones media bluster, imagine being a player of his and hearing similar false facts/pretences referenced as reasons for your non-selection. It must be hugely frustrating. So much so that I think the players who end up thriving under Jones and becoming his favourites tend to be those who submit somewhat mindlessly to his Eddieisms. It may be a stretch, but when I look at the 2003 team and the sheer number of eloquent, intelligent and independent leaders in that era - Johnson, Hill, Leonard, Dallaglio, Greenwood, Robinson, Lewsey - not to mention the likes of Kay, Dawson, Wilkinson who have ended up in the media, it's hard not to see the contrast vs the current team, who seem so reliant on (even submissive to) Eddie's direction.

Maybe it is due to the progression of professionalism and the impact that has, but the downward trend of your average England players on and off pitch intellect is hard to ignore and I don't think Eddie's approach is helping this in the slightest.

Also for good measure, I don't think it was a no-brainer to bring Ford on when he did, although I certainly wasn't annoyed until after the second weedy penalty touch kick and even then it's hard to argue Smith would have done much better.
 
Would Townsend have taken Russell off, would Farrell have taken Sexton off, would Pivac have taken Biggar off? etc? Not a chance
Remind me which of Russell, Sexton or Biggar are earning their 6th cap, with a 4 cap player on the bench.

Does any thought get given to nuance, such as how they are personally playing? how they're controlling the game and manipulating the opposition?
 
Remind me which of Russell, Sexton or Biggar are earning their 6th cap, with a 4 cap player on the bench.

Does any thought get given to nuance, such as how they are personally playing? how they're controlling the game and manipulating the opposition?

Well he'd just seen Smith see out the World Champions perfectly so I would say he already had the perfect player on the pitch, irrespective of number of caps
 
The way someone people on here talk about Smith is how the Welsh talk about AWJ.

He's a young talented lad but not the finished article with next to no international experience. I wouldn't of subbed him after the try because his tail might be up but before that....its not like he was having a barnstorming game...most of that was the backline he was playing with and Youngs being shite.

Honestly it wasn't a shocking decision from Eddie unlike others he could have made.
 
Totally disagree on your last point

Do you really think that leading 17-10 after 63 minutes with the fly half having scored all the points and the team now on the front foot, that any other coach would have taken the fly half off if he wasn't injured? Really?

Would Townsend have taken Russell off, would Farrell have taken Sexton off, would Pivac have taken Biggar off? etc? Not a chance
Pivac has brought Sheedy on around the hour mark of nearly all of his Wales matches. The drop off from Smith to Ford is tiny compared to Russell's and Sexton's replacement.

NZ, SA and France regularly use the tactic too (France when they have Jalibert available anyway)

This is really only an issue because Smith is the current golden boy. As I've said, a 10 controlling a game excellently should have had England in a more comfortable position. Not that it's a massive criticism, Smith is a kid in his first 6n start but he definitely didn't play a game where taking him off was erroneous.
 

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