[2023 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 12 February 2023

[TRF_Olyy]

How often does Arundell play at Wing vs FB?

He's never started a game on the wing, but he's played there from the bench a fair amount (including for England)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I hope this doesn't turn out to be like the pictures of BOD and Tuilagi's bromance during the lions tour

Maybe they're hanging out cause they're gonna be 22 and 23 on Sunday

 

[NZhookersarefunny]

Italy will come close here. Better coached side but less talent.
How many losses will Borthwick be able to blame on Jones? I think h might stick the whole
6nations on him - forgetting that Eddie won his first one.
England will finish 4th on log above italy and wales.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Italy will come close here. Better coached side but less talent.
How many losses will Borthwick be able to blame on Jones? I think h might stick the whole
6nations on him - forgetting that Eddie won his first one.
England will finish 4th on log above italy and wales.

The team Eddie inherited was in a lot better state than the team Borthwick has inherited. We also looked much better in our first game with Borthwick in charge than we have for the last few years under Eddie jones. Let's not forget that Eddie lost to the Scot's for the last 4 years or so as well.

At least we have shape in our game and are actually scoring tries now!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Disagree about the state of the team inherited. I would say both are on par with each other.

Also disagree about how much better we looked in that game v Scotland. We showed maybe a couple glimpses of better but also dead cat bounce can be a thing.

Borthwick has had more injuries though in his first game to deal with

Borthwick honestly has till the rugby World Cup and even then it would need to be genuinely a terrible World Cup for him to get the boot. RFU tied their own hands with him really.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Am i in the minority for not rating Isiekwe that much? He's a good player but id say behind Chessum and Ribbans. No way Chessum doesnt start after last week.

I rate him very highly - at lock. He's not a highlights reel player, apart from some of his aerial work, but he's just one of those that seems to make a difference although you never quite know why. Not directly comparing him to Kruis, but it's that kind of glue player / unseen work thing.

He's only fairly recently back from injury, so I suspect that he's still not fully hit his straps. Needs a run of games to prove himself at this level, but if the choice is between him and Chessum then Chessum has definitely stolen a march.

Puff piece on Itoje yesterday in the Times saying that he's been deployed differently so fewer highlights but many more rucks hit etc. Lots of stats around penalty / turnover ratios and an increased proportion of dominant carries. Doesn't really change my view that we're still far from seeing the best of him.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Disagree about the state of the team inherited. I would say both are on par with each other.


Borthwick has had more injuries though in his first game to deal with

Borthwick honestly has till the rugby World Cup and even then it would need to be genuinely a terrible World Cup for him to get the boot. RFU tied their own hands with him really.

Really? I remember Lancaster creating a great team who's only stumbling block was Lancasters brain fasts when we went into the WC. Before that we were really showing promise, whereas England have been in decline for 3 years now.

 

[Reiser99]

Disagree about the state of the team inherited. I would say both are on par with each other.

Also disagree about how much better we looked in that game v Scotland. We showed maybe a couple glimpses of better but also dead cat bounce can be a thing.

Borthwick has had more injuries though in his first game to deal with

Borthwick honestly has till the rugby World Cup and even then it would need to be genuinely a terrible World Cup for him to get the boot. RFU tied their own hands with him really.

Jones also took over after a WC and with almost a fresh slate. Borthwick has 9 months and is limited in how much he can change.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Jones also took over after a WC and with almost a fresh slate. Borthwick has 9 months and is limited in how much he can change.

Either Eddie had a fresh slate or he inherited his team which is it?

Let's also be real honestly how many changes do people think Borthwick would've actually made with unlimited changes?
Leicester played basically like England.

Really? I remember Lancaster creating a great team who's only stumbling block was Lancasters brain fasts when we went into the WC. Before that we were really showing promise, whereas England have been in decline for 3 years now.

I mean
Martin Johnson won the 6Ns and got through to the playoffs .
Lancaster won nothing and got knocked out in the home group stage
Eddie Jones won the 6n's and got to the final.

Don't get me wrong Eddie team was in decline yes, but this team on paper is still just as good as the team that was great on paper under lancaster

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Also disagree about how much better we looked in that game v Scotland. We showed maybe a couple glimpses of better but also dead cat bounce can be a thing.

 

[Reiser99]

Either Eddie had a fresh slate or he inherited his team which is it?

Let's also be real honestly how many changes do people think Borthwick would've actually made with unlimited changes?
Leicester played basically like England.

Meant more in terms of he was at the start of a WC cycle and didn't have the same level of pressure so he was able to start from scratch with the players he wanted. Also just because he may have inherited a good team, doesn't mean he had to stick with it.

 

[Scotty]

I rate him very highly - at lock. He's not a highlights reel player, apart from some of his aerial work, but he's just one of those that seems to make a difference although you never quite know why. Not directly comparing him to Kruis, but it's that kind of glue player / unseen work thing.

He's only fairly recently back from injury, so I suspect that he's still not fully hit his straps. Needs a run of games to prove himself at this level, but if the choice is between him and Chessum then Chessum has definitely stolen a march.

Puff piece on Itoje yesterday in the Times saying that he's been deployed differently so fewer highlights but many more rucks hit etc. Lots of stats around penalty / turnover ratios and an increased proportion of dominant carries. Doesn't really change my view that we're still far from seeing the best of him.

Right i get you on Iseikwe, i did kind of already get that impression on him which was why i was confused at him on the bench over Ribbans as he isnt an impact player or a back row.

I just hope Chessum goes from strength to strength as he seems such a talent but more because at a young age he's taken to international rugby really well.

 

[NZhookersarefunny]

The team Eddie inherited was in a lot better state than the team Borthwick has inherited. We also looked much better in our first game with Borthwick in charge than we have for the last few years under Eddie jones. Let's not forget that Eddie lost to the Scot's for the last 4 years or so as well.

At least we have shape in our game and are actually scoring tries now!

As a non England fan i'm happy to agree with you- please keep him as coach for a very long time. and remember you are building a team for the next world cup.

 

[NZhookersarefunny]

Meant more in terms of he was at the start of a WC cycle and didn't have the same level of pressure so he was able to start from scratch with the players he wanted. Also just because he may have inherited a good team, doesn't mean he had to stick with it.

Dude if you think a coach doesn't pick the players he wants - you are crazy . his neck is on the line day one.

Building a team
Some positives to take
New team

All buzzwords that is utter bullshit - I remember talking to Nick Mallet after the baba's smashed the all blacks he coached. He said it takes 3 days to make a team gel, its's absolute bullshit to use it as an excuse.

Go look at Alister Coetzee and most of unsuccessful coaches - they all used that line in the beginning .... Ian Foster also used it .....and if you think NZ problems are fixed wait for the world cup.

 

[NZhookersarefunny]

In my book only 3 sides can win the world cup

Ireland
Springboks
Australia (easy draw)

 

[TommiG88]

In my book only 3 sides can win the world cup

Ireland
Springboks
Australia (easy draw)

Aus still have to play one of the form teams in the semi.

Still between France and SA for me, with Ireland getting knocked out in the quarters

 

[Reiser99]

Dude if you think a coach doesn't pick the players he wants - you are crazy . his neck is on the line day one.

Building a team
Some positives to take
New team

All buzzwords that is utter bullshit - I remember talking to Nick Mallet after the baba's smashed the all blacks he coached. He said it takes 3 days to make a team gel, its's absolute bullshit to use it as an excuse.

Go look at Alister Coetzee and most of unsuccessful coaches - they all used that line in the beginning .... Ian Foster also used it .....and if you think NZ problems are fixed wait for the world cup.

Wrong. Under the rules in England the coach can only make 5 permanent changes to the squad as well as injury changes, so no I'm not crazy.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Dude if you think a coach doesn't pick the players he wants - you are crazy . his neck is on the line day one.

That's actually not true; Borthwick is allowed 5 changes plus injury replacements, to the EPS. Crazy, but true.

 

[NZhookersarefunny]

Lets all be honest, how absolutely awesome would it be if Italy beats England. I know chances are slim but wow a guy can dream.

Just to see the panic stations of realising you fired a good coach for a shitter one.
Realising it's the team and not the coach
Seeing Marcus Smith get blamed would be an added bonus - even as England fans how can anyone honestly say they like the guy?

My humble opinion for fixing England

Play Farrell at 10 - give Smith the last 20
Pick Slade every game
Get rid of youngs and the vinipolo brothers
Get Itoje to play 8
Stop listening to anything Clive Woodward says he's a sour idiot.
Run negative stories about Megan MArkel everyday in all the papers until Harry comes to his senses
Fix your youth - the stealing and teen pregnancies are something to be ashamed of.


I think i wondered off there

 

[TRF_Olyy]