[2023 Six Nations] Ireland v England - 18 March 2023

[Leonormous Boozer]

Trust me, no one is disagreeing with the result. I'm happy for Steward to be dealt with by the citing commission. However, if he gets the same ban as others who have been dangerous then it will undermine everything. This is the main issue. We need consistency and an improvement in how incidents are dealt with post game because otherwise it's all just for show and not about player welfare. If it is about player welfare then at minimum the citing commissioner should acknowledge the Aki and Ryan incidents and say that they didn't warrant a red card. To ignore them completely is pathetic.

No disagreement there at all. At the top level of the game I think there should be a review team solely looking for head contact. Leaving it to the TMOs and citing commissioner isn't working right now

 

[munstermuffin]

The mitigation criteria is supposed to allow covering for the grey areas, it doesn't matter if the refs decide not to apply it. TBH I feel the current system in place is the best way (criteria for starting level of punishment then look for mitigation), but the problem is the inconsistency with which it is applied, which arguably points to the ref's discretion being the problem. Giving the ref more leeway will likely not fix this.

The only change I think is that sometimes red is too harsh a punishment for what can be purely accidental incidents. I feel red should be reserved for extremely reckless or intentional stuff, not accidents that happened to end badly.



Sorry but no. If Ryan "did everything correctly" and was controlled and still smacked a player in the head with force, that only means he intentionally targeted the head. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn if you argue he was in control and nothing materially changed as he went in. If he didn't intend to hit the player in the head then we was NOT in control. You can't say he did everything right and was in control but then didn't intend to hit the player in the head, these are contradictory statements. There very clearly was force in the hit by Ryan, he hit that ruck the same way as a player clearing out would.

No way is Aki a passive defender, he is going forwards and driving into the tackle. Neither case had any mitigating factors.

But this is the issue. The mitigation is still trying to be dealt with by a printed rule as opposed to common sense in looking at the scenario.
Effectively Steward will be in same ball park punishment wise as if he stayed forward facing, dipped the shoulder and did Hugo. That is fact.

When C.J. Stander was sent off vs S.A. all those years ago for the late hit this was said as much to us. Now I'm not saying C.J. didn't deserve his red or anything like that more the rule does not sway away from effectively the defender is keyholder of responsibility and safety of attacker.

Take a dump tackle for example. I could take a soft landing on my head and man gets red carded for it as I landed on head. Yet someone could go to viciously do you and you land on elbow and he may just get a yellow.

 

[Rinkadink]

there's no material change in direction either. No mitigation.

This is observably incorrect, especially from other angles like the ones in the YouTube video from a page or so back. Clearly Keenan is in an awful position (which should the waist tackle law come in, will be illegal) and spins/turns into Steward by 90°, if not more.

 

[AlRums]

Popular sign in Ireland today

 

[General Melchett]

View attachment 16361

Popular sign in Ireland today

The sign was probably donated by Boris after his time in Downing street during COVID.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is observably incorrect, especially from other angles like the ones in the YouTube video from a page or so back. Clearly Keenan is in an awful position (which should the waist tackle law come in, will be illegal) and spins/turns into Steward by 90°, if not more.

You're wrong in two ways here.



34 seconds shows Keenan is going directly towards goal the entire time he's in possession. He's picking up a lose ball, it's not an unnatural position

Secondly, the change in direction rule is only applied to unnatural movements almost always caused by a third party tackler.

Just look at the contact lads, forget the knock on because that's not relevant until the whistle is blown. It is a high speed, high force, shoulder/elbow charge to the head with no attempt to wrap or even tackle. This is not a controversial card and does not suggest anything is wrong with the laws of the game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Honestly don't know how you can watch that and not say that there's a change in height that should be considered mitigating circumstances
07 he's upright, 08 he's bent over so his head is at elbow height and the collision occurs

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

You're wrong in two ways here.



34 seconds shows Keenan is going directly towards goal the entire time he's in possession. He's picking up a lose ball, it's not an unnatural position

Secondly, the change in direction rule is only applied to unnatural movements almost always caused by a third party tackler.

Just look at the contact lads, forget the knock on because that's not relevant until the whistle is blown. It is a high speed, high force, shoulder/elbow charge to the head with no attempt to wrap or even tackle. This is not a controversial card and does not suggest anything is wrong with the laws of the game.

Not sure how you can charge people when you don't have any weight on the leading foot. His body position is to absorb impact not maximize it with all of his weight on his back foot. Same foot same shoulder is a basic principle of contact.

Its literally in the thumbnail of the video

 

[Nudger]

Am I the only person that saw the head high tackle on Watson on englands line,that lead to Ireland try

 

[Rinkadink]

34 seconds shows Keenan is going directly towards goal the entire time he's in possession. He's picking up a lose ball, it's not an unnatural position

Secondly, the change in direction rule is only applied to unnatural movements almost always caused by a third party tackler.

From the video you just linked (47seconds ish);

Just took a few screen shots on my phone. I know he's your guy but he clearly changes body height and turns.

There are incidents every week in club rugby (especially in winter) where a BC slips into a "high" tackle therefore play on. It's not a notable occurrence.

I'm not tripping (pardon the unintentional pun), am I?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

From the video you just linked;

View attachment 16368


View attachment 16369
View attachment 16370
Just took a few screen shots on my phone. I know he's your guy but he clearly changes body height and turns.

There are incidents every week in club rugby (especially in winter) where a BC slips into a "high" tackle therefore play on. It's not a notable occurrence.

I'm not tripping (pardon the unintentional pun), am I?

I think he contorts his upper body but doesn't change direction, he's also rising and the contact and is a decent bit higher than the final pic?! Like I think it is so unlucky for Steward, he's made one very small bad decision in a split second to go for the ball staying high and then his natural reaction turns it into the worse possible reaction.

The fallout is because it is such an unusual situation but with the laws as they are I don't see how it can't be a red. I don't know where I am with the orange card but it's definitely one I'd think is fair to be covered by it.

 

[NotTooAmused]

The only change I think is that sometimes red is too harsh a punishment for what can be purely accidental incidents. I feel red should be reserved for extremely reckless or intentional stuff, not accidents that happened to end badly.

This is where I stand on it. I don't know what Freddy could've done other than phase out of existence for a couple of seconds, but it was a dangerous situation regardless.

ETA: If I was in a situation like this (which I almost definitely wouldn't be) I'd probably get caught out doing the exact same thing, or defaulting to a tackle that'd be called high anyway because Keenans running directly at my hip. Reckon it'd look a bit DDT

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Am I the only person that saw the head high tackle on Watson on englands line,that lead to Ireland try

"We've checked it for you, Jaco, and the player is wearing white - so play on"
It's a penalty only but it's definitely a penalty - Hansen is over the shoulder and stays there throughout the whole tackle as he drags him down


Shoulder to the head as part of the same tackle as well

 

[General Melchett]

This is where I stand on it. I don't know what Freddy could've done other than phase out of existence for a couple of seconds, but it was a dangerous situation regardless.

Agreed. He's not duty bound to attempt to tackle Keenan because if he thinks he can't execute a tackle safely in that split second then he shouldn't attempt one otherwise it could have been much worse.

 

[retired9]

Incredibly harsh red card for me, as mentioned numerous times it should have been looked at at full speed replay as well. Keenans body position is low to collect the pass, there is no space to adjust before the defensible line is on him.

Rugby incident, the attacking player is in a compromised body position, the defending player has no time to commit to attack the ball (bounced on floor) or to tackle the player before a potential impact with his abdomen.

The best you can reasonably expect from Steward is perhaps a lower body position but in that scenario, he gets carded for a shoulder to head. He is under no obligation to stand aside for Keenan to pass him.

The problem with carding incidents like this also is that attacking teams may start to use it to their advantage - ie all I need to do is head charge the defender and they get a red (not saying that happened here just to clear).

 

[retired9]

View attachment 16371
"We've checked it for you, Jaco, and the player is wearing white - so play on"
It's a penalty only but it's definitely a penalty - Hansen is over the shoulder and stays there throughout the whole tackle as he drags him down


Shoulder to the head as part of the same tackle as well

Pretty poor, did the players ask for a check?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pretty poor, did the players ask for a check?

Nope, went straight into the scrum - George asked whether it was actually carried back over, and not just unplayable (a fair question on watching the replays) and Peyper tells him to get on with the scrum

 

[NotTooAmused]

Peyper tells him to get on with the scrum

Good ol' Peyper

 

[retired9]

Good ol' Peyper

Prefer a Piper meself

 

[NotTooAmused]

Prefer a Piper meself

as in the Co-op sausage roll?