[2023 Six Nations] Ireland v England - 18 March 2023

[retired9]

as in the Co-op sausage roll?

Nah noisy tartan thing

 

[NotTooAmused]

Nah noisy tartan thing

ah, the McJock BlowBags

 

[MarkyH]

I was extremely annoyed at the weekend. The mitigation has been discussed on here, but it's hardly been mentioned it was a forward pass that was spilled by Ireland that lead to the red card. Theoretically now, but I can knock on and go low to pick up a ball then run into an arm.

They discuss mitigation, Peypar say's there is none, but there was many mitigating issues in the seconds that led up to the red card.

Additional to that, lots of high tackles still go unpunished, and that is an action where there should be a penalty at least, and that's something a player can choose to do or not. There's little mitigation in a seatbelt tackle for example.

The inconsistency is ruining the game. I want Rugby to be good, even if England are rubbish.

As a fan I can see the difference between a deliberate head shot, a head shot as a result of a players negligence, and a player who literally can't do anything about it. The latter one should remain a Rugby incident, and be a penalty at most.

Also, Ireland are fantastic at the moment, and we wouldn't have won with 15 on the pitch. I wish them all the best and hope they do something special this autumn.

 

[BrokenWing]

As Sam Warburton put it yesterday, is he just meant to take one in the nuts?

 

[j-dawg]

I remember Borthwick talking absolute shite in his post match interviews as captain. I fear we are seeing the same thing.

 

[AlRums]

You're wrong in two ways here.



34 seconds shows Keenan is going directly towards goal the entire time he's in possession. He's picking up a lose ball, it's not an unnatural position

Secondly, the change in direction rule is only applied to unnatural movements almost always caused by a third party tackler.

Just look at the contact lads, forget the knock on because that's not relevant until the whistle is blown. It is a high speed, high force, shoulder/elbow charge to the head with no attempt to wrap or even tackle. This is not a controversial card and does not suggest anything is wrong with the laws of the game.

Also very noticeable that Steward jumped into his position from forward to sideways, at the moment of contact his right toe is barely in contact with the ground

 

[Crash Hamster]

View attachment 16371
"We've checked it for you, Jaco, and the player is wearing white - so play on"
It's a penalty only but it's definitely a penalty - Hansen is over the shoulder and stays there throughout the whole tackle as he drags him down


Shoulder to the head as part of the same tackle as well

Spotted the Hansen 'penalty only' tackle, but the subsequent shoulder direct to the head is another red card if the TMO was even half awake, surely?

 

[Smurfy]

There have been a lot of references to the split second decision that Steward had to make but there was a 10 yard separation at least between Keenan and Steward when the ball was spilled, and the ball bounced straight up to Keenan who didn't vary his run, so I'm not sure what changed for Steward in the time from the ball was spilled and Keenan gathering it. Surely his instinct should have been to put in a legal heavy tackle on a wide open Keenan rather than the half arsed bracing for a collision that was always going to happen. As Keenan had regathered the ball then this has to be considered an attempted tackle, so I think it was foul play by Steward Under the laws of the game. If the ball had bounced away from Keenan and the two came together then it's a rugby incident.

Ireland have experienced some very strange decisions by Peyper, as have a number of other sides, and I think he is a particularly poor referee, but I suspect after Wayne Barnes didn't send Atonio off in Dublin that World Rugby issued a very strong directive around dangerous tackles, and refs hands are tied. When the England U20 outhalf was sent off yesterday the ref followed the Peyper's reasoning verbatim, with absolutely no variation, despite the fact that the two incidents were completely different. So, far from the Steward sending off marking a change in direction regarding cards I think we will see far less discretion around mitigation. Concussion claims represent a huge financial threat to World Rugby and the individual Unions so the authorities need to be seen to be taking a hard line. I think the SH trialling of the new 10 minute rule has huge merits, and it will reduce the length of TMO stoppages and result in more continuity, and fair results should be arrived at without the crowd's involvement, but it does add yet another layer of bureaucracy to the game.

 

[BrokenWing]

0.6 seconds time to react according to the rugby daily podcast.

There's actually a point when Hansen gives the pass and Keenan realises it's not going to hand where looks like for a fraction of a second it crosses his mind to try and kick it. You can see him do a quick shuffle of his feet and I wonder if that's why Steward reacted like he did.

 

[NotTooAmused]

0.6 seconds time to react according to the rugby daily podcast.

if so, hard to blame him.

 

[AlRums]

I was extremely annoyed at the weekend. The mitigation has been discussed on here, but it's hardly been mentioned it was a forward pass that was spilled by Ireland that lead to the red card. Theoretically now, but I can knock on and go low to pick up a ball then run into an arm.

They discuss mitigation, Peypar say's there is none, but there was many mitigating issues in the seconds that led up to the red card.

Additional to that, lots of high tackles still go unpunished, and that is an action where there should be a penalty at least, and that's something a player can choose to do or not. There's little mitigation in a seatbelt tackle for example.

The inconsistency is ruining the game. I want Rugby to be good, even if England are rubbish.

As a fan I can see the difference between a deliberate head shot, a head shot as a result of a players negligence, and a player who literally can't do anything about it. The latter one should remain a Rugby incident, and be a penalty at most.

Also, Ireland are fantastic at the moment, and we wouldn't have won with 15 on the pitch. I wish them all the best and hope they do something special this autumn.

The fact it was from a forward pass is totally irrelevant. That's likening Willis's card not valid because he upended the man off the ball

 

[Smurfy]

if so, hard to blame him.

Why? It's probably the same time that he would have had if the pass had gone to hand, and he had to make decision on who to take, or how to tackle if Keenan decided to step him. Players make good split second decisions all the time, but they also make some poor ones.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The fact it was from a forward pass is totally irrelevant. That's likening Willis's card not valid because he upended the man off the ball

Except in the sense that if the ball had gone backwards, as Steward would have been reasonably assuming, Keenan would have been in a more upright position after a couple of strides running and Steward would have had more time to either get out of the way or adjust to make a tackle. As it was it doesn't look as if Keenan even completed a stride with the ball before the contact.

I can understand why a lot of people are incensed about this. I reckon the card will be upheld, but with a minimum ban.

Anyone fancy becoming a ref?

 

[NotTooAmused]

Why? It's probably the same time that he would have had if the pass had gone to hand, and he had to make decision on who to take, or how to tackle if Keenan decided to step him. Players make good split second decisions all the time, but they also make some poor ones.

0.6 seconds while both players are running forward, with Steward probably initially intending to catch the ball? Keenan even at one point looking like he's going to kick the ball.

Sure bud.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The 0.6 seconds is from when Keenan first gets the ball. Plenty of time before that to keep his feet on the ground and react accordingly.

 

[NotTooAmused]

The 0.6 seconds is from when Keenan first gets the ball. Plenty of time before that to keep his feet on the ground and react accordingly.

ah, gotcha, still not quite sure he could've done though

 

[retired9]

Think you should go and measure out what 10 yeards actually looks like Smurfy, when the pass was released maybe there was 10 yards but not when it hit the grass.

That bounced ball change everything, Steward would be committed to a tackle assuming that the pass will be clean and held by Keenan - quite rightly so. As soon as it goes to ground he is in danger of tackling man without ball and thats why he pulls up IMO.

 

[Smurfy]

And if the ball had gone to hand he still would have had to consider Keenan's options in that time. Was he going to kick it, was he going to pass it outside or inside, was he going to step. These are all normal decisions that these guys make in split seconds. Steward made a poor one that resulted in Keenan having to leave the pitch permanently.

The most significant thing that Peyper said in his summing up was "in the current climate". In other words head injuries are the big concern, and refs discretion has been massively reduced. I think Steward was unfortunate, and that a different solution must be found to avoid sendings off for that type of incident having such a profound effect on the game, but. we play under current laws, and the ruling bodies stated interpretation of them, and, despite my dislike of Peyper as a referee,I think his hands were tied.

 

[General Melchett]

The most significant thing that Peyper said in his summing up was "in the current climate".

I did wonder at the time what the weather in Dublin had to do with it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And if the ball had gone to hand he still would have had to consider Keenan's options in that time. Was he going to kick it, was he going to pass it outside or inside, was he going to step. These are all normal decisions that these guys make in split seconds. Steward made a poor one that resulted in Keenan having to leave the pitch permanently.

The most significant thing that Peyper said in his summing up was "in the current climate". In other words head injuries are the big concern, and refs discretion has been massively reduced. I think Steward was unfortunate, and that a different solution must be found to avoid sendings off for that type of incident having such a profound effect on the game, but. we play under current laws, and the ruling bodies stated interpretation of them, and, despite my dislike of Peyper as a referee,I think his hands were tied.

TBH I think it's less about how harshly Steward was treated (I can accept it being a red by a strict interpretation of the laws and guidelines), it's more that the justification for that strictness is how much we are trying to reduce head injuries yet have multiple cases of Irish players clattering into the heads of English players and it being completely ignored. Stewards was clumsy and spur of the moment but in the 3 cases that have come up where an Irish player has hit the English player in the face, the Irish player has lined them up from a distance and, with minimal change in situation, clattered into their head. All times they were an active defender, supposedly in control and approaching at speed. The one where Watson was hit in the head may have mitigation as there was another player involved, but that player themselves was already putting them in a seatbelt tackle, so also illegal, and they still charged in to a player who they could already see was wrapped up and just drove their shoulder in.

If you are going to be strict in 2 cases, you simply cannot let those other cases pass completely unpunished. Given the Watson one preceded a try as well and the closeness of the score before the first card, this had a significant impact on the game. Do I think England deserved to win? No not really but the fact remains we were in the game up until that point and had we at least got penalties from these situations, that is a potential try chalked off and maybe another 6 from the tee. That a potential 13 point swing, excluding any cards. Ireland won by... 13 points.