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A Political Thread pt. 2

@Ragey Erasmus

God damnnit I love you lol you've got a ton of respect from me for being brave enough to challenge the points, not that I'm criticising the name callers and pearl clutchers. I havnt even read your message yet, and I don't care about the content really, it's the intent I have massive respect for!!!

"Excluding the latest FBI director that Trump pushed out. Sure he wasn't fired but he only resigned because Trump was threatening to fire him. That's 2 FBI directors he has removed, both of whom had been involved in actions against him. Sessions was not involved in action against Clinton.

Trump has said he has no intention of firing the head of the reserve, right after making comments that he should go and repeatedly attacking him and saying his "termination couldn't come soon enough." That's little more than the same tactic he used against the last FBI director."

Ok I agree with this, but the claim was "repeatedly fired FBI directors" this is not accurate, because he only fired 1. The other resigned, and we could get into the weedsnof why, but then I'd have to go into the weeds of why every FBI director resigns, and attribute that or not to presidential pressure or bullying etc.

You know Trump makes outlandish statements, and a lot of the time they are designed to entrap the media into numbing the public to the evils of Trump. He makes an ambiguous statement like this, or like a 3rd term, or like fight like he'll, and then categorically rejects the premise picked up by the media. It's a very obvious tactic and I don't understand how it still enrages people.

Sorry I'm going to have to get to sections bit by bit lol
 
You seem proud of your contrarian nature. It's disagreeing for the sake of it with no real substance and you hardly engage with actual facts or reality. Bit like your constant defence of Gatland when we were losing every game.
Not at all, I've said it a million times, I've criticised Trump, I've agreed with some links, but the hyperbolic stupid Russian urine sex party style propaganda has to be challenged, and that's all your seeing and responding too!

To claim Trump is not a good guy is factually correct, to say he's brash, crude, and potentially dangerous are accurate... to make the claim a double term president, billionaire, TV personality is a low IQ moron, mini Hitler is just ludicrously stupid. He acts in line with most presidents, a lot of articles clammer to one ambiguous word and make the claim 'Hitler confirmed' and it helps noone.

My stance is simple, if you believe the stupidity, your going to miss the true danger. MAGA fans at this point are numb to anything he does, because for every bad act there are 50 news articles lying, and for every evidenced stance in alignment with his detractors, they manipulate intent.

If we cut through the stupidity, we can recognise reengage with the cultists
 
this current China US trade war was started by Biden in 2018

No, the war started in Trump's first term. Biden hiked some of them but it was directed against China and only for certain goods, he didn't slap them on the whole world for all goods.

This I can concede, kind of. Trump was escelating, bit let's not pretend that Obama wasn't either, as Bush before:

"I will go anywhere in the world to open new markets for American products. And I will not stand by when our competitors don't play by the rules. We've brought trade cases against China at nearly twice the rate as the last administration – and it's made a difference. Over a thousand Americans are working today because we stopped a surge in Chinese tires. But we need to do more. It's not right when another country lets our movies, music, and software be pirated. It's not fair when foreign manufacturers have a leg up on ours only because they're heavily subsidized."

President Barack Obama, 1/24/2012

The war in the modern day sense was escalated by Biden in 2018, Trump's war was just unsuccessful, as was Obamas to be fair, in fact as was Bidens hahaha The US has been watching China for decades, Trump has just pressed the nuclear button, after the last 4 attempts of limiting China's growth, let's see if this works any better
 
Not at all, I've said it a million times, I've criticised Trump, I've agreed with some links, but the hyperbolic stupid Russian urine sex party style propaganda has to be challenged, and that's all your seeing and responding too!

To claim Trump is not a good guy is factually correct, to say he's brash, crude, and potentially dangerous are accurate... to make the claim a double term president, billionaire, TV personality is a low IQ moron, mini Hitler is just ludicrously stupid. He acts in line with most presidents, a lot of articles clammer to one ambiguous word and make the claim 'Hitler confirmed' and it helps noone.

My stance is simple, if you believe the stupidity, your going to miss the true danger. MAGA fans at this point are numb to anything he does, because for every bad act there are 50 news articles lying, and for every evidenced stance in alignment with his detractors, they manipulate intent.

If we cut through the stupidity, we can recognise reengage with the cultists
God you use a lot of words without saying anything don't you. How about you address my points. That would be nice.
 
Clinton conceded very soon after the results and has never claimed the election itself was rigged. Her complaints have been around the FBI announcing they were investigating her but not announcing they were also investigating Trump at the time.

This im struggling with, she's made numerous comments over the last decade claiming the election was stolen, Putin interfered, blaming Russian wikileaks etc... infact didn't 40 odd Democrats object to their states tickets for numerous reasons after 2016? I remember seeing video of them presenting them, I think a Trump lawyer was detailing all of the law suits and challenges of 2016...

Which are pretty standard btw.
 
God you use a lot of words without saying anything don't you. How about you address my points. That would be nice.
Which point? The comment stating presidents dont challenge the constitution, or the claim directly after stating you didn't say that?

"Every president challenges the constitution. ******* lol."

"Jesus Christ. I'm not taking about "challenging" the constitution"

See where the confusion lies?

Which point are you referring to specifically?
 
Which point? The comment stating presidents dont challenge the constitution, or the claim directly after stating you didn't say that?

"Every president challenges the constitution. ******* lol."

"Jesus Christ. I'm not taking about "challenging" the constitution"

See where the confusion lies?

Which point are you referring to specifically?
Insurrection.

FAKE ELECTOR PLOT

If you can point me to every single president engaging in this type of behaviour fill your boots. If not then stop putting it in the same box as "challenging the constitution"
 
Again, where is your nuance?
Rahm Emanuel - Left to run for mayor of Chicago and due to a series of conflicts with various members of the staff, not just the president
Rouse - Was only ever an acting chief of staff
Daley - Had said from the beginning he was only there until Obama won re-election then was going home to Chicago.
Lew - Stayed within the administration as treasury secretary afterwards
McDonough - Stayed until the end.

Whilst for Trump:
Priebus - Forced out of the administration and became the shortest serving chief of staff. Known to have criticised Trump, calling him an "idiot"
Kelly - Forced out of the administration. Kelly said he supported Trump being removed from office using the 25th amendment and that Trump was directly responsible for Jan 6th.
Mulvaney - Only acting. Was involved in the blackmail of Ukraine and Covid denialism.
Meadows - Stayed until the end and was involved in Jan 6th conspiracies.

100% accurate, but you made the claim no other president had 4 chiefsf. The claim was that Trump is in line with other presidents, you claimed he wasn't because no other president had 4, Obama had 5. The reasons for them leaving varies. Trump falls out with people, people leave every administration.

I think the miscommunication here is maybe me looking at these as individual cases and you as a pattern of behaviour, and I get it. Not president has as vast a catalogue of these things as an entity as Trump, but the behaviours are mostly in line with others, and the level of scrutiny and invasion due to technology has never been greater.

Wait until Obama wins 2028, let's see how many people are concerned about Authoritarianism then lol
 

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Insurrection.

FAKE ELECTOR PLOT

If you can point me to every single president engaging in this type of behaviour fill your boots. If not then stop putting it in the same box as "challenging the constitution"
Ok, how many insurrection charges was Trump convicted of?
 
His response was to make himself immune.

What do you understand about the plot itself?

This is a very strange way of saying 0, and an even stranger way of stating he won the presidency?

Why cant you just say, he hasn't been convicted of instigating an insurrection, and was acquired before becoming president?

These are factual statements, not pro or anti Trump. The house voted and acquitted him, and infact Biden took a very measured approach on the aqcuital to give him credit.

Smiths also said a lot of things running up to the November election, he could and probably should have got to trial beforehand, but that's a messy situation for all involved.
 
This is a very strange way of saying 0, and an even stranger way of stating he won the presidency?

Why cant you just say, he hasn't been convicted of instigating an insurrection, and was acquired before becoming president?

These are factual statements, not pro or anti Trump. The house voted and acquitted him, and infact Biden took a very measured approach on the aqcuital to give him credit.

Smiths also said a lot of things running up to the November election, he could and probably should have got to trial beforehand, but that's a messy situation for all involved.
I answered your question. Obviously it's none because his strategy was to seek immunity which the SCOTUS granted.

So as I have answered your question, how about you answer mine. What do you understand about the plot itself?
 
I answered your question. Obviously it's none because his strategy was to seek immunity which the SCOTUS granted.

So as I have answered your question, how about you answer mine. What do you understand about the plot itself?
Seek immunity? He won the presidency I don't understand why you have to reframe things? SCOTUS didn't grant him immunity, it granted the office immunity, this includes crimes of other presidents. They're all dancing for this one!

You mean the fake elector plot? That theory that Trump was involved in discussions about bringing fake electors to Pence whoncould do nothing with it whatsoever?
 
Ok I agree with this, but the claim was "repeatedly fired FBI directors" this is not accurate, because he only fired 1. The other resigned, and we could get into the weedsnof why, but then I'd have to go into the weeds of why every FBI director resigns, and attribute that or not to presidential pressure or bullying etc.

You know Trump makes outlandish statements, and a lot of the time they are designed to entrap the media into numbing the public to the evils of Trump. He makes an ambiguous statement like this, or like a 3rd term, or like fight like he'll, and then categorically rejects the premise picked up by the media. It's a very obvious tactic and I don't understand how it still enrages people.
Maybe repeatedly was a bit of hyperbole but FBI directors are supposed to serve 10 year terms precisely to separate them from political squabbling. Trump fired one and forced another out both for selfish reasons. Comey there was an argument he should have gone, but Trump did it for personal reasons. The current one was pushed out for the sole purpose of Trump installing one of his sycophants there. Kash Patel will then have to be kicked out if a Republican doesn't win the next election as he is utterly corrupt.

You give Trump way too much credit if you believe the outlandish statements are part of a greater plan to entrap the media. What's far more likely is he says whatever pops in his head and then rows it back / is convinced to row it back when it blows up in his face. Exactly the same with the tariffs and various policies he's tried pushing. You know what happens if the media doesn't get "entrapped" as you claim? He ploughs ahead and does exactly what he said he would do.

This I can concede, kind of. Trump was escelating, bit let's not pretend that Obama wasn't either, as Bush before:

"I will go anywhere in the world to open new markets for American products. And I will not stand by when our competitors don't play by the rules. We've brought trade cases against China at nearly twice the rate as the last administration – and it's made a difference. Over a thousand Americans are working today because we stopped a surge in Chinese tires. But we need to do more. It's not right when another country lets our movies, music, and software be pirated. It's not fair when foreign manufacturers have a leg up on ours only because they're heavily subsidized."

President Barack Obama, 1/24/2012

The war in the modern day sense was escalated by Biden in 2018, Trump's war was just unsuccessful, as was Obamas to be fair, in fact as was Bidens hahaha The US has been watching China for decades, Trump has just pressed the nuclear button, after the last 4 attempts of limiting China's growth, let's see if this works any better
If Trump had limited his trade war to just China, it probably wouldn't have faced such pushback. He didn't though, he literally started a trade war with the entire world and, with the exception of China, spent most of his time attacking allies and the USA's biggest trading partners. China was hardest hit but it was against everyone.

This im struggling with, she's made numerous comments over the last decade claiming the election was stolen, Putin interfered, blaming Russian wikileaks etc... infact didn't 40 odd Democrats object to their states tickets for numerous reasons after 2016? I remember seeing video of them presenting them, I think a Trump lawyer was detailing all of the law suits and challenges of 2016...

Which are pretty standard btw.
All those claims are true. We know Russia interfered, we know Russian hackers were behind wikileaks. Hell the leaks were even published after Trump asked Russian hackers to release dirt on Clinton... I cannot think of a single other president who has actively asked an enemy of the USA to interfere in the election process against their rival. She claimed the election was "stolen" in the sense there was a lot of disinformation aimed at her by foreign powers, notably Russia, and FBI inconsistencies that polling shows contributed heavily to her loss. Bearing in mind she won the popular vote by a quite substantial margin and it was a small swing in key states that turned things to Trump. As a point of comparison, Clinton beat Trump in the popular vote by 2.1% and lost. Trump beat Harris by 1.5% in the popular vote and won.

Looking in to Democrat lawsuits, it seems most were before election day and were challenging procedures before the the vote was won. Trump's were after election day challenging the result itself. The CATO institute (a right wing American think tank) even admitted the scale of Republican election denialism is on a scale vastly eclipsing the Democrats https://www.cato.org/commentary/yes...illegitimate-gop-election-denialism-far-worse

Clinton did not claim the entire electoral system was corrupt and that some domestic "deep state" was working against her, it was mostly the interference of foreign (mostly Russian) powers.

100% accurate, but you made the claim no other president had 4 chiefsf. The claim was that Trump is in line with other presidents, you claimed he wasn't because no other president had 4, Obama had 5. The reasons for them leaving varies. Trump falls out with people, people leave every administration.

I think the miscommunication here is maybe me looking at these as individual cases and you as a pattern of behaviour, and I get it. Not president has as vast a catalogue of these things as an entity as Trump, but the behaviours are mostly in line with others, and the level of scrutiny and invasion due to technology has never been greater.

Wait until Obama wins 2028, let's see how many people are concerned about Authoritarianism then lol
That's being excessively nit picky. You say Obama also had 4, that's fair enough. It was over twice the timeframe and they left for very different reasons. You cannot simply look at just the numbers and again claim they are the same. Even if you look at individual cases, they aren't the same. Obama didn't have his former chiefs of staff criticising him and saying he wasn't fit for office. He didn't chuck them out until he got some to perform impeachable acts and he did have a single chief of staff for a prolonged period of time, something Trump hasn't had at all.

If Obama gets in for a 3rd term it will be because Republicans have already established 3rd terms are legal and ok, in which case it becomes a moot point. The issue isn't the 3rd term in and of itself, the issue is a 3rd term when the law says there shouldn't be a 3rd term. Presidents have had 3 terms before, it's not authoritarian, what is authoritarian is attempting to stay in power when the law says you shouldn't.

Ok, how many insurrection charges was Trump convicted of?
Sorry but this is meaningless. He needed to be prosecuted by Republicans and they have shown no desire to do so. That doesn't make him innocent. It's like how he wasn't prosecuted for the illegal retention of documents because the judge arbitrarily decided special prosecutors are actually unconstitutional and simply threw the case out, even though special prosecutors have repeatedly been ruled constitutional, including by the Supreme Court. It was a special prosecutor who prosecuted Nixon. That corruption of the legal process doesn't mean he was actually innocent, the case was thrown out for reasons that had nothing to do with the case. To say he hasn't been prosecuted isn't an argument for his innocence at all.
 
Man in blue suit at an organisation known for sexual abuse allegations, dubious views on women and paying people off. I think he fits right in.
 
Maybe repeatedly was a bit of hyperbole but FBI directors are supposed to serve 10 year terms precisely to separate them from political squabbling. Trump fired one and forced another out both for selfish reasons. Comey there was an argument he should have gone, but Trump did it for personal reasons. The current one was pushed out for the sole purpose of Trump installing one of his sycophants there. Kash Patel will then have to be kicked out if a Republican doesn't win the next election as he is utterly corrupt.

You give Trump way too much credit if you believe the outlandish statements are part of a greater plan to entrap the media. What's far more likely is he says whatever pops in his head and then rows it back / is convinced to row it back when it blows up in his face. Exactly the same with the tariffs and various policies he's tried pushing. You know what happens if the media doesn't get "entrapped" as you claim? He ploughs ahead and does exactly what he said he would do.


If Trump had limited his trade war to just China, it probably wouldn't have faced such pushback. He didn't though, he literally started a trade war with the entire world and, with the exception of China, spent most of his time attacking allies and the USA's biggest trading partners. China was hardest hit but it was against everyone.


All those claims are true. We know Russia interfered, we know Russian hackers were behind wikileaks. Hell the leaks were even published after Trump asked Russian hackers to release dirt on Clinton... I cannot think of a single other president who has actively asked an enemy of the USA to interfere in the election process against their rival. She claimed the election was "stolen" in the sense there was a lot of disinformation aimed at her by foreign powers, notably Russia, and FBI inconsistencies that polling shows contributed heavily to her loss. Bearing in mind she won the popular vote by a quite substantial margin and it was a small swing in key states that turned things to Trump. As a point of comparison, Clinton beat Trump in the popular vote by 2.1% and lost. Trump beat Harris by 1.5% in the popular vote and won.

Looking in to Democrat lawsuits, it seems most were before election day and were challenging procedures before the the vote was won. Trump's were after election day challenging the result itself. The CATO institute (a right wing American think tank) even admitted the scale of Republican election denialism is on a scale vastly eclipsing the Democrats https://www.cato.org/commentary/yes...illegitimate-gop-election-denialism-far-worse

Clinton did not claim the entire electoral system was corrupt and that some domestic "deep state" was working against her, it was mostly the interference of foreign (mostly Russian) powers.


That's being excessively nit picky. You say Obama also had 4, that's fair enough. It was over twice the timeframe and they left for very different reasons. You cannot simply look at just the numbers and again claim they are the same. Even if you look at individual cases, they aren't the same. Obama didn't have his former chiefs of staff criticising him and saying he wasn't fit for office. He didn't chuck them out until he got some to perform impeachable acts and he did have a single chief of staff for a prolonged period of time, something Trump hasn't had at all.

If Obama gets in for a 3rd term it will be because Republicans have already established 3rd terms are legal and ok, in which case it becomes a moot point. The issue isn't the 3rd term in and of itself, the issue is a 3rd term when the law says there shouldn't be a 3rd term. Presidents have had 3 terms before, it's not authoritarian, what is authoritarian is attempting to stay in power when the law says you shouldn't.


Sorry but this is meaningless. He needed to be prosecuted by Republicans and they have shown no desire to do so. That doesn't make him innocent. It's like how he wasn't prosecuted for the illegal retention of documents because the judge arbitrarily decided special prosecutors are actually unconstitutional and simply threw the case out, even though special prosecutors have repeatedly been ruled constitutional, including by the Supreme Court. It was a special prosecutor who prosecuted Nixon. That corruption of the legal process doesn't mean he was actually innocent, the case was thrown out for reasons that had nothing to do with the case. To say he hasn't been prosecuted isn't an argument for his innocence at all.

100% agree that Patel will be gone with the next Dem president, but I also acknowledge Trump made the same claims about Comey as you have about Patel, so it's apples and oranges.

You talk likelyhoods when discussing Trump's blathering in the media, but in my theory the outcome of a strategy of entrapment would be exactly what is happening, whereas with your theory he'd have been ousted by now. I can't remember who said it but the phrase 'if Trump did one 10th of the stupid things he's done, he'd be criminalised 10 x more'

His strategy is shock and awe, and it's worked pretty well, during the Clinton campaign he said 3 things a week that would've sunk anyone else, noone seemed to recognise those 3 things a week drowned out Clinton announcements etc...

Ah OK, election denying is OK when Democrats do it because it's all true hahaha come on, when I say you guys are different sides of the same coin this is what I mean, condemns Trump for firing an FBI lead, requests the next Dem government removes this one, calls Trump election denier, would consider storming the capitol to defend Hillary.

Aw mate that Cato link doesn't say what you think it does (although i had to goggle it as link didnt work, so hopefully got the right articel), it only highlights 3 cherry picked examples, ignores 100 years of history, and basically states the actions were basically the same but the Rep numbers were stronger. It lost me when it made the claim Trump egged the capitol rioters on by telling them to 'fight like hell' when entering the building lol, and refused to mention the rest of the speach "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard". Thisnis what I mean by reporting that manipulates, just report the facts and let people make up their own mind!

One could argue the fierceness of Republican objections could reflect the evidence of electoral medalling, including the disgracefully postal ballot fight before hand. (More complex argument).

Your 3rd term argument isn't sensible though, because Reagon petitioning to abolish 22, Obama commented on it, Bill Clinton is still in favour of it, regardless of its legality. Let's say all 3 of these agree a 3rd term should be allowed, are they all authoritarian, or is it OK when they do it? Over the last 30 ro 40 years over a dozen representatives have tabled motions to repeal 22, multiple times each including Reagon and Clinton in their 2nd temrs and being popular (although they didn't do it directly, it was on their behalf).

22 is only illegal until it's repealed, Trump will try it, and then a dozen more representatives over the next 30 years will try it, until eventually it will go to a vote. These aren't authoritarian moves, the constitution is tried all the time, despite welsh exiles assertions, every president wants to change the constitution, and some even run on it, especially 2nd amendment which interestingly has quietened down recently.

And again, the documents, it's regular practice to mishandle and misuse documents, Biden and Trump got into heat for it, one was not prosecuted because he's too much of a nice old man with no memory, the other was because the judge excused away the special counsels abilities, which by the way invalidated elements of Nixons conviction too.

So there you have it, sitting, former and vice presidents are not criminalised for things we would be, they are protected and given far more immunity, in line with each other.
 

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