A Political Thread pt. 2

[Welsh Exile]

Yes, ignore the press blackout and talk about Hamas. Like Trump ignoring the stock market crashing and talking about Biden.

I don't ignore it. The opposite in fact. I recognise it and say it's a mistake not to and say that understandably this has led to a lot of misinformation to the point we can't be sure what's going on though @Reiser99 is right that however you spin it it's obviously horrific what's going on, but I'd say all wars are horrific.

 

[dirty harry]

Yes, ignore the press blackout and talk about Hamas. Like Trump ignoring the stock market crashing and talking about Biden.

The problem with that analogy is that Trump was right, the market recovered within the week and is set to progress nicely lol. I made great profit from that.

I don't think anyone disagrees with Isreal about the press blackout, but they do make good points about safety and Hamas using international journalists and human rights abuses. There was a case of an Italian reporter reporting on behalf of Hamas, and then escaping Gaza and retracting pretty much everything he wrote, a few years ago I believe.

Hamas propaganda can't just be taken as gospel though, there are 3 sides to every report from the GMO or GMH, or indeed IDF. Is that not a fair stance?

 

[dirty harry]

I don't ignore it. The opposite in fact. I recognise it and say it's a mistake not to and say that understandably this has led to a lot of misinformation to the point we can't be sure what's going on though @Reiser99 is right that however you spin it it's obviously horrific what's going on, but I'd say all wars are horrific.

Hamas are winning the propaganda war handily!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Hamas are winning the propaganda war handily!

It’s their whole strategy, it’s why they filmed it for the world to see. The want Palestinians to die for their propaganda war. Isreal is at the point where they don’t give a **** what the rest of the world thinks about them. In fact they probably say it’s proof that the world isn’t safe for them and everyone hates them. Rightly or wrongly that’s the perception, just as they perceive being wiped out as very real.

 

[McTallshort]

Team Zion

He sucking upto you because he made a twat out of himself yesterday

 

[dirty harry]

He sucking upto you because he made a twat out of himself yesterday

Don't be so emotional, it's an Internet forum. Relax and discuss and disagree.

I'm not sucking up to @Welsh Exile the genocidal TDS monkey hahaha

We align similarly on this, you align with me on many subjects, you just don't have the integrity to agree!

 

[ncurd]

yesterday

Only yesterday?

 

[Welsh Exile]

He sucking upto you because he made a twat out of himself yesterday

We both had our Ba mitzvah together as kids.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

We both had our Ba mitzvah together as kids.

Mazal Tov to both of you and Harry.

 

[Which Tyler]

If you think Hamas is guilty of genocide but Israel isn't, then yeah we aren't going to agree.

If it helps - you and I have dictionary definitions on our side.
WE... less so.

eg: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/genocide

the crime of intentionally destroying part or all of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, by killing people or by other methods:
...

Genocides usually occur amid the haze of war.

So, by definition, killing a relatively small number of people who are jewish =/= genocide. Occuring during a way =/= not-genocide.

I'm still waiting for WE's definition, btw. One that means that the October 7th attack is attempted genocide, rather than a terrorist atrocity; and exempts acts occurring during war from being genocidal (whilst acknowledging that a war required opposing nation states - which means that this cannot be a war, by definition, because Gaza is not a nation state.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If it helps - you and I have dictionary definitions on our side.
WE... less so.

eg: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/genocide

So, by definition, killing a relatively small number of people who are jewish =/= genocide. Occuring during a way =/= not-genocide.

I'm still waiting for WE's definition, btw. One that means that the October 7th attack is attempted genocide, rather than a terrorist atrocity; and exempts acts occurring during war from being genocidal (whilst acknowledging that a war required opposing nation states - which means that this cannot be a war, by definition, because Gaza is not a nation state.

I think Welsh exile is probably correct in that Hamas would try to carry out genocide if they had the capability. The fact they don't is important though, the best they can do is acts of terrorism.

Their desire to do more doesn't make what they did do genocide. Intent is only part of it, actual ability and result is the other.

Israel has less intent to commit genocide, but they vastly eclipse Hamas in terms of their capability and what they are actually doing. Whilst Israel isn't looking to simply kill all Palestinians, they are definitely looking at driving them out of the territory.

 

[Welsh Exile]

If it helps - you and I have dictionary definitions on our side.
WE... less so.

eg: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/genocide

So, by definition, killing a relatively small number of people who are jewish =/= genocide. Occuring during a way =/= not-genocide.

I'm still waiting for WE's definition, btw. One that means that the October 7th attack is attempted genocide, rather than a terrorist atrocity; and exempts acts occurring during war from being genocidal (whilst acknowledging that a war required opposing nation states - which means that this cannot be a war, by definition, because Gaza is not a nation state.

I already explained it. Do we agree that Hamas specifically targeted civilians? I assume we do. Do we also agree the reason they killed those people is because they were Jews? These 2 things are undeniable. Hamas admit it.

I would argue that the IDF are not intentionally killing Palestinian civilians and are instead killing Palestinians via collateral damage of attacking Hamas.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think Welsh exile is probably correct in that Hamas would try to carry out genocide if they had the capability. The fact they don't is important though, the best they can do is acts of terrorism.

Their desire to do more doesn't make what they did do genocide. Intent is only part of it, actual ability and result is the other.

Israel has less intent to commit genocide, but they vastly eclipse Hamas in terms of their capability and what they are actually doing. Whilst Israel isn't looking to simply kill all Palestinians, they are definitely looking at driving them out of the territory.

I don't see how ability comes into it. October 7th was a genocidal act coz they hate Jews and they say they want to kill all the Jews. The fact they are not equipped to do that doesn't take anything away from the act itself as you rightly say, it's intent. Just how it doesn't matter that Isreal are far more powerful. If their intent is not to kill all, or in part, Palestinian civilians then it's not a genocide.

 

[Saintjay]

I think Welsh exile is probably correct in that Hamas would try to carry out genocide if they had the capability. The fact they don't is important though, the best they can do is acts of terrorism.

Their desire to do more doesn't make what they did do genocide. Intent is only part of it, actual ability and result is the other.

Israel has less intent to commit genocide, but they vastly eclipse Hamas in terms of their capability and what they are actually doing. Whilst Israel isn't looking to simply kill all Palestinians, they are definitely looking at driving them out of the territory.

Which is exactly the same as Hamas but you hit the nail on the head with it's who has the capability.

Would Hamas behave differently if they had the same capacity given there stated aims. I suspect they would be the exactly the same.

Arguing over those baby killers are worse than those baby killers seems bonkers to me.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Also, if Isreal are genocidal towards Palestinians how come there’s 2 million Palestinian/arabs living in Israel. Weird huh.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I wonder how 2 million Jews would fare under Hamas leadership.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Which is exactly the same as Hamas but you hit the nail on the head with it's who has the capability.

Would Hamas behave differently if they had the same capacity given there stated aims. I suspect they would be the exactly the same.

Arguing over those baby killers are worse than those baby killers seems bonkers to me.

You think Hamas would act the same as Isreal if the roles were reversed? Really?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't see how ability comes into it. October 7th was a genocidal act coz they hate Jews and they say they want to kill all the Jews. The fact they are not equipped to do that doesn't take anything away from the act itself as you rightly say, it's intent. Just how it doesn't matter that Isreal are far more powerful. If their intent is not to kill all, or in part, Palestinian civilians then it's not a genocide.

Because the definition of genocide includes actually being able to act upon it. you can certainly claim Hamas would want to carry out genocide, but the fact is they haven't because they aren't capable of it.

Let's take it to it's logical conclusion, if you had an individual who wanted to commit genocide and they got as far as killing one person, would you call it genocide simply because they wanted to go further? No. An ability to actually act upon it matters.

By your definition, a single person being killed by a side who want to commit genocide is more of a genocide than another side killing millions but who didn't specifically intend genocide. The actual result matters, just the same as it does in law. You don't see people prosecuted for things they didn't do, even if they wanted to.

Hamas know they can't commit genocide because they don't have the ability to, so they do what they can which is acts of terrorism.

Do you think the KKK were responsible for genocide for example?

 

[Which Tyler]

I think Welsh exile is probably correct in that Hamas would try to carry out genocide if they had the capability. The fact they don't is important though, the best they can do is acts of terrorism.

Their desire to do more doesn't make what they did do genocide. Intent is only part of it, actual ability and result is the other.

Israel has less intent to commit genocide, but they vastly eclipse Hamas in terms of their capability and what they are actually doing. Whilst Israel isn't looking to simply kill all Palestinians, they are definitely looking at driving them out of the territory.

Oh absolutely, Hamas would love to be genocidal against Israel - and probably all of judaism. But they can't be, and haven't been.
Israel probably isn't too bothered either way if it's genocidal against Gaza. But they can, and have been.

I already explained it.

Sorry, I must have missed - and didn't find it on a quick look back - any chance you could repeat yourself please?
What is your definition of genocide? If it's easier, just a link to your dictionary of choice would suffice.

If it helps, I can provide another, this one from the UN: https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

[h2]Definition[/h2][h3]Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide[/h3]
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

You are right that the UN bring intent into the equation. I'd argue that an accidental genocide is still a genocide, not a justifiable "oopsie".

A] Do we agree that Hamas specifically targeted civilians? I assume we do. Do we also agree the reason they killed those people is because they were Jews? These 2 things are undeniable. Hamas admit it.

B] I would argue that the IDF are not intentionally killing Palestinian civilians and are instead killing Palestinians via collateral damage of attacking Hamas.

A] Absolutely, we do agree.
B] Absolutely, we disagree.
Neither of the above have anything much to do with the definition of genocide.

 

[Yulia]

Jesus....go back to work, you talkative guys!! These are working hours and you keep posting politics in a rugby forum! (I have a short lunch now so can post )