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Right first up let's clear things up. I never said people don't have legitimate concerns about migration I said the concerns when it comes to security are misfounded. So most of you post is fair dues.

Security vetting (having been through it myself) is a bit of a joke TBH and it's very unlikely to work on the scale we need it at TOP SECRET clearance takes months to years even for people who need it currently at only level of checking worth a damn. Leaving the EU won't really make us any safer is terms that are tangible. We'll still get intelligence we require and anyone flagged up will still get stopped at the border. Security seams like a moot topic in this entire debate.
 
Screaming racist at people for questioning an open door immigration policy and having concerns about the mass movement of refugees some of which have no love for our way of life is at best naive and at worst stupidly irresponsible and a big reason why parties such as UKIP gain such support.
I didn't mention migration. I am talking about refugees, victims of war and conflict. You suggested shutting the door on all of them because of the risk of terrorism.

Terrorism is not a significant risk to the UK. The West's hysteria towards terrorism is entirely unjustified. The chances of dying from it are so ridiculously low, it shouldn't register on anyone's radar as a risk. In terms of the risk towards yourself and others in this country, you should be more worried about dying to bees than terrorism.

To then use the risk of terrorism to justify abandoning thousands of people, forcing them to stay in a war-torn country... that's clear-as-day racism. You perceive your own safety, which is in pretty much no danger whatsoever, to be above the lives of thousands of people, on the account of a stereotype that they are Muslim and therefore they might be terrorists. Would you have made the same terrorism argument if the French, Americans or Dutch were seeking refuge, for instance? I'm not saying that you are racist, I just think that this position isn't thought through at all.

And as for the risk of terrorism... I don't think it increases the risk at all anyway. By not allowing refugees into the UK on the basis that they are Muslim and therefore possibly terrorists, you alienate Muslims already living in the UK, and alienation is a fairly well-known cause of young people taking up extremism.
 
It's amazing that you can punch someone and get thrown in prison for assault, but as an employer, you can exploit thousands of people, pay effectively below the minimum wage, create a culture of fear such that a woman gives birth in a toilet for fear of missing work, and yet nothing. When will we ever get around to policing high-level crime?
 
It's amazing that you can punch someone and get thrown in prison for assault, but as an employer, you can exploit thousands of people, pay effectively below the minimum wage, create a culture of fear such that a woman gives birth in a toilet for fear of missing work, and yet nothing. When will we ever get around to policing high-level crime?

Yeah it's amazing what good the eu has done for employment law.
 
Well yes that's the problem with involving pampered luvvies in a serious debate that will effect normal people. They are just not used to people disagreeing with them. I bet he went off stage and all his 'people' told him what a fantastic performance he put in. I know the BBC is celeb obsessed but they would be better selecting someone from the audience than having a plonker like him on
 
Watched the first half so far. Don't think bringing up Farage's family added any merit to the debate. Banging on about it was a mistake. But otherwise, Eddie was spot on factually and passionately.

For Brexiters: how do you propose we handle our ageing population and contracting birth rate?

We can't just look at our headline population figure. Our older generations are going to live longer - this is unquestionable. Unless we decide to ship our elderly off, we will have more and more pensioners living in the UK over the next few decades. If we are going to have more pensioners, then we need more working age people to pay the taxes that pay for retirement benefits. If the pensioner population doubles, then so must the working age population. If we become too age top-heavy, then there is absolutely no way that our younger generation will be able to pay for peoples retirement.

And we cannot do this through natural fertility. The fertility rate in this country is too low to be able to sustain the ageing population. For every mother, 1.9 children are born. But this includes migrants, who have higher birth rates. For every UK born mother, the fertility rate is 1.74. Without immigration, our population will contract rapidly. Younger generations will be outnumbered by older generations, putting spiralling burden on workers to provide for pensioners.

Scarier than the immigration figure is the figure of people going into retirement each year: in 2011 (census), in England and Wales alone, 557,600 a year. But it is increasing. According to parliament, in the next 5 years, the population will increase by 3% but the pensioner population by 12%. (https://www.parliament.uk/business/...liament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/)

Japan has this problem. They are extremely stringent on immigration, and have a low fertility rate, which means a rapidly ageing and contracting population. They don't have enough workers, and have too many pensioners. Their workers work longer than the UK, and they take fewer holidays. Whereas our debt spiked because of the recession, and is now coming under control, Japan's debt is spiralling upwards and has been for years, because they simply don't have the workers to bring in tax revenue to cater for all the money needed for their ageing population.

Reducing immigration literally helps no one. Workers have to work longer and retire later whereas retirees have their retirement benefits cut, and migrants lose out on improving their lives. The economy gets crippled (a double whammy with the other issues posed by leaving the EU). I just don't see the sense.
 
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Watched the first half so far. Don't think bringing up Farage's family added any merit to the debate. Banging on about it was a mistake. But otherwise, Eddie was spot on factually and passionately.

For Brexiters: how do you propose we handle our ageing population and contracting birth rate?

We can't just look at our headline population figure. Our older generations are going to live longer - this is unquestionable. Unless we decide to ship our elderly off, we will have more and more pensioners living in the UK over the next few decades. If we are going to have more pensioners, then we need more working age people to pay the taxes that pay for retirement benefits. If the pensioner population doubles, then so must the working age population. If we become too age top-heavy, then there is absolutely no way that our younger generation will be able to pay for peoples retirement.

And we cannot do this through natural fertility. The fertility rate in this country is too low to be able to sustain the ageing population. For every mother, 1.9 children are born. But this includes migrants, who have higher birth rates. For every UK born mother, the fertility rate is 1.74. Without immigration, our population will contract rapidly. Younger generations will be outnumbered by older generations, putting spiralling burden on workers to provide for pensioners.

Scarier than the immigration figure is the figure of people going into retirement each year: in 2011 (census), in England and Wales alone, 557,600 a year. But it is increasing. According to parliament, in the next 5 years, the population will increase by 3% but the pensioner population by 12%. (https://www.parliament.uk/business/...liament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/)

Japan has this problem. They are extremely stringent on immigration, and have a low fertility rate, which means a rapidly ageing and contracting population. They don't have enough workers, and have too many pensioners. Their workers work longer than the UK, and they take fewer holidays. Whereas our debt spiked because of the recession, and is now coming under control, Japan's debt is spiralling upwards and has been for years, because they simply don't have the workers to bring in tax revenue to cater for all the money needed for their ageing population.

So we should Nick all the young People from eastern Europe and let them drift further into oblivion? Welcome to the (western) EU dream!
 
Watched the first half so far. Don't think bringing up Farage's family added any merit to the debate. Banging on about it was a mistake. But otherwise, Eddie was spot on factually and passionately.

For Brexiters: how do you propose we handle our ageing population and contracting birth rate?

We can't just look at our headline population figure. Our older generations are going to live longer - this is unquestionable. Unless we decide to ship our elderly off, we will have more and more pensioners living in the UK over the next few decades. If we are going to have more pensioners, then we need more working age people to pay the taxes that pay for retirement benefits. If the pensioner population doubles, then so must the working age population. If we become too age top-heavy, then there is absolutely no way that our younger generation will be able to pay for peoples retirement.

And we cannot do this through natural fertility. The fertility rate in this country is too low to be able to sustain the ageing population. For every mother, 1.9 children are born. But this includes migrants, who have higher birth rates. For every UK born mother, the fertility rate is 1.74. Without immigration, our population will contract rapidly. Younger generations will be outnumbered by older generations, putting spiralling burden on workers to provide for pensioners.

Scarier than the immigration figure is the figure of people going into retirement each year: in 2011 (census), in England and Wales alone, 557,600 a year. But it is increasing. According to parliament, in the next 5 years, the population will increase by 3% but the pensioner population by 12%. (https://www.parliament.uk/business/...liament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/)

Japan has this problem. They are extremely stringent on immigration, and have a low fertility rate, which means a rapidly ageing and contracting population. They don't have enough workers, and have too many pensioners. Their workers work longer than the UK, and they take fewer holidays. Whereas our debt spiked because of the recession, and is now coming under control, Japan's debt is spiralling upwards and has been for years, because they simply don't have the workers to bring in tax revenue to cater for all the money needed for their ageing population.

Reducing immigration literally helps no one. Workers have to work longer and retire later whereas retirees have their retirement benefits cut, and migrants lose out on improving their lives. The economy gets crippled (a double whammy with the other issues posed by leaving the EU). I just don't see the sense.


Doesn't the EU in general have pretty crap birth rates?

Outside of France and Ireland we have the 3rd highest birth rate in it, so how would the EU help us in that department without having a knock on affect to another country in the EU?

Genuinely would like to know, as surely that would come down to worldwide immigration.
 
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Doesn't the EU in general have pretty crap birth rates?

Outside of France and Ireland we have the 3rd highest birth rate in it, so how would the EU help us in that department without having a knock on affect to another country in the EU?

Genuinely would like to know, as surely that would come down to worldwide immigration.

That's it, it does have an effect on other EU countries. The western European countries all preach how great open border immigration is because it's draining all the best and brightest from eastern Europe. Obviously the socialist elite like Mr izzard forget all that when the university educated Slovak waitress is serving him his iced mocha
 
With driverless cars, AI and robots about to take over the world there will be world wide unemployment which should solve the immigration issue......as well as providing many more such as what will young people do with their lives other than fight each other!

FUTURE PREDICTIONS:
In 1998, Kodak had 170,000 employees and sold 85% of all photo paper worldwide. Within just a few years, their business model disappeared and they went bankrupt. What happened to Kodak will happen in a lot of industries in the next 10 years - and most people don't see it coming. Did you think in 1998 that 3 years later you would never take pictures on paper film again? Yet digital cameras were invented in 1975. The first ones only had 10,000 pixels, but followed Moore's law. So as with all exponential technologies, it was a disappointment for a long time, before it became way superior and got mainstream in only a few short years. It will now happen with Artificial Intelligence, health, autonomous and electric cars, education, 3D printing, agriculture and jobs. Welcome to the 4th Industrial Revolution. Welcome to the Exponential Age.

Software will disrupt most traditional industries in the next 5-10 years.
Uber is just a software tool, they don't own any cars, and are now the biggest taxi company in the world. Airbnb is now the biggest hotel company in the world, although they don't own any properties.

Artificial Intelligence: Computers become exponentially better in understanding the world. This year, a computer beat the best Go player in the world, 10 years earlier than expected. In the US, young lawyers already don't get jobs. Because of IBM Watson, you can get legal advice (so far for more or less basic stuff) within seconds, with 90% accuracy compared with 70% accuracy when done by humans. So if you study law, stop immediately. There will be 90% fewer lawyers in the future, only specialists will remain. Watson already helps nurses diagnosing cancer, 4 time more accurate than human nurses. Facebook now has a pattern recognition software that can recognize faces better than humans. By 2030, computers will become more intelligent than humans.

Autonomous Cars: In 2018 the first self-driving cars will appear for the public. Around 2020, the complete industry will start to be disrupted. You don't want to own a car anymore. You will call a car with your phone, it will show up at your location and drive you to your destination. You will not need to park it, you only pay for the driven distance and can be productive while driving. Our kids will never get a driver's license and will never own a car. It will change the cities, because we will need 90-95% fewer cars for that. We can transform former parking space into parks. 1.2 million people die each year in car accidents worldwide. We now have one accident every 100,000 km, with autonomous driving that will drop to one accident in 10 million km. That will save a million lives each year.

Most car companies may become bankrupt. Traditional car companies try the evolutionary approach and just build a better car, while tech companies (Tesla, Apple, Google) will do the revolutionary approach and build a computer on wheels. I spoke to a lot of engineers from Volkswagen and Audi; they are completely terrified of Tesla.

Insurance Companies will have massive trouble because without accidents, the insurance will become 100x cheaper. Their car insurance business model will disappear.

Real estate will change. Because if you can work while you commute, people will move further away to live in a more beautiful neighborhood.

Electric cars won’t become mainstream until 2020. Cities will be less noisy because all cars will run on electric. Electricity will become incredibly cheap and clean: Solar production has been on an exponential curve for 30 years, but you can only now see the impact. Last year, more solar energy was installed worldwide than fossil. The price for solar will drop so much that all coal companies will be out of business by 2025.

With cheap electricity comes cheap and abundant water. Desalination now only needs 2kWh per cubic meter. We don't have scarce water in most places, we only have scarce drinking water. Imagine what will be possible if anyone can have as much clean water as he wants, for nearly no cost.

Health: There will be companies that will build a medical device (called the "Tricorder" from Star Trek) that works with your phone, which takes your retina scan, your blood sample and you breathe into it. It then analyses 54 biomarkers that will identify nearly any disease. It will be cheap, so in a few years everyone on this planet will have access to world class medicine, nearly for free.

3D printing: The price of the cheapest 3D printer came down from $18,000 to $400 within 10 years. In the same time, it became 100 times faster. All major shoe companies started 3D printing shoes. Spare airplane parts are already 3D printed in remote airports. The space station now has a printer that eliminates the need for the large number of spare parts they used to have in the past.

At the end of this year, new smart phones will have 3D scanning possibilities. You can then 3D scan your feet and print your perfect shoe at home. In China, they already 3D printed a complete 6-storey office building. By 2027, 10% of everything that's being produced will be 3D printed.

Business Opportunities: If you think of a niche you want to go in, ask yourself: "in the future, do you think we will have that?" and if the answer is yes, how can you make that happen sooner? If it doesn't work with your phone, forget the idea. And any idea designed for success in the 20th century is doomed in to failure in the 21st century.

Work: 70-80% of jobs will disappear in the next 20 years. There will be a lot of new jobs, but it is not clear if there will be enough new jobs in such a small time.

Agriculture: There will be a $100 agricultural robot in the future. Farmers in 3rd world countries can then become managers of their field instead of working all days on their fields. Agroponics will need much less water. The first Petri dish produced veal is now available and will be cheaper than cow-produced veal in 2018. Right now, 30% of all agricultural surfaces is used for cows. Imagine if we don't need that space anymore. There are several startups that will bring insect protein to the market shortly. It contains more protein than meat. It will be labeled as "alternative protein source" (because most people still reject the idea of eating insects).

There is an app called "moodies" which can already tell in which mood you are. Until 2020 there will be apps that can tell by your facial expressions if you are lying. Imagine a political debate where it's being displayed when they are telling the truth and when not.

Bitcoin will become mainstream this year and might even become the default reserve currency.

Longevity: Right now, the average life span increases by 3 months per year. Four years ago, the life span used to be 79 years, now it's 80 years. The increase itself is increasing and by 2036, there will be more than one year increase per year. So we all might live for a long long time, probably way more than 100.

Education: The cheapest smart phones are already at $10 in Africa and Asia. Until 2020, 70% of all humans will own a smart phone. That means, everyone has the same access to world class education.

Robert M. Goldman MD, PhD, DO, FAASP
www.DrBobGoldman.com
World Chairman-International Medical Commission
Co-Founder & Chairman of the Board-A4M
Founder & Chairman-International Sports Hall of Fame
Co-Founder & Chairman-World Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine
President Emeritus-National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM)
Chairman-U.S. Sports Academy’s Board of Visitors
 
Tony Manxx post why I became a software engineer.

- - - Updated - - -

To answer the retirement question the simple answer is eventually (long before I retire) going to have to significantly and dramatically alter the state pension ages.
 
With respect though Tony in the 80s everyone was saying mobile phones and microwave were going to mean a life of leisure and family time and the complete opposite happened.
 
Cameron is throwing this Referendum to the Brexit camp!!

Lies, exaggerations and sheer hyperbole treating the public as utter morons is not enough......he has does not even have the tactical nous to hold back the honor bribes until after the June 23!

Birthday honors crammed with people who have entered into tawdry deals with this discredited Government.

Not being content to being to the left of Gordon Brown with their unrelenting attack on middle class earners, they are now resorting to the worst type of corruption and bullying!

Jeez if there were an opposition......!!
 
Cameron is throwing this Referendum to the Brexit camp!!

Lies, exaggerations and sheer hyperbole treating the public as utter morons is not enough.......
Yeah because Leave are such utter saints on this front....

All politicians have been as bad as each other throughout this entire campaign.
 
Any argument that Remain have run a more negative campaign than Leave goes out the window with this:

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Holy **** that is inappropriate.
 
You should see the flyer delivered to homes. Shows the 5 countries currently applying to enter the EU but are likely donkey years away as they've barely met any of criteria if any. Fair enough that part though but then on the map they highlight how close those countries are to Iraq and Syria.

I just find it a bit cheap they call remain project fear with stuff like that.

Anyway Brexit looking close to inneviatible now so just better get prepared for it and pray our jobs aren't effected by the resession that both sides agree will happen. The pound is already starting to plunge...
 
Not convinced. Some of these polls were done solely online (where a much bigger proportion of people vote to leave), and polls won't account for the on-the-day shift towards the status quo option. They've also weighted turnout on the basis of elections, but a referendum of this size will probably have a bigger turnout, and I reckon the difference will be mostly young people who are pro-EU.

But it looks like it will be a very narrow contest. Silver lining: Cameron/Osborne will face the calls to leave. Already Tory MPs are making their lives difficult (8:29): http://www.theguardian.com/politics...orne-punishment-budget-farage-flotilla-thames
 
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