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Wellycane
Guest
New Zealand don't poach every single PI rugby player like you guys think that happens in the All Blacks team.
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New Zealand don't poach every single PI rugby player like you guys think that happens in the All Blacks team.
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Prestwick
Guest
that's right, it took a south african to get you the ashes back from Aus.
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He's English! He even tattooed half a dozen lions onto his arm or something! If that doesn't prove you're English I don't know what is!
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QKXV
Guest
that's right, it took a south african to get you the ashes back from Aus.
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He's English! He even tattooed half a dozen lions onto his arm or something! If that doesn't prove you're English I don't know what is!
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Lions are from Africa, ask yourself this question, have you seen a Lion stalking badgers on hampstead heath?
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Rugby_Cymru
Guest
*Whispers* Close to the meat!
They've been known to stalk pigeons in Trafalgar Square...
They've been known to stalk pigeons in Trafalgar Square...
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Bullitt
Guest
I remember we sent some Lions to South Africa 10 years ago which troubled the natives.
They were pretty lame however... Since then they've been bollocked by f***ing wallabies and kiwis!!! :lol:
They were pretty lame however... Since then they've been bollocked by f***ing wallabies and kiwis!!! :lol:
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Ripper
Guest
Its known as "poaching of talent" Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand do it to the third world all the time. The most high profile is all of the above poaching doctors and nurses from Africa and South Asia for their health systems which cripples third world services, Canada poaches athletics talent from..well...anywhere which cripples the teams that those Caribbean and African nations can send to the Olympics, England poaches anything from South Africa, thus while not crippling, annoys the Wokka Bokke ( :bleh!: ) and New Zealand, Australia and the British Army poach from the pacific islands for their rugby teams.
Seriously, its all right New Zealand, we know how it works. In a few weeks time, the Army will wipe the floor with the Navy at Twickenham because most of their team are from the Parachute Regiment and most of those guys are Fijian and Samoan.
So, seriously, New Zealand, give it up already, we know because we do the exact same thing. Stop being so uppity about it.
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Yes I admit, we poach, using advanced scientific methods we can work out what woman and male is most likely to produce an excellent Rugby Player, so we kidnap them and force them to breed in New Zealand. As well as that with our awesome scouts we can tell whether or not a player is the next Joe Rocokoko just by watching him running around in barefeet when he is 5 years old.
Seriously, you don't know how it works. Your Northerners still fail to comprehend that these kids are New Zealanders. Most of the time they can't even walk yet when they immigrate to New Zealand, they all virtually play their first ever game in New Zealand, they do all their schooling in New Zealand, they are raised through our rugby system from Day 1.
You on the other hand wait till they are 22, than poach them... kind of a difference.
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C A Iversen
Guest
100% Ripper.
Prestwick was bizarrely scatter-shot in his response. Talking about doctors and health systems? What are we talking about here? This is rugby we're talking about. It seems the only way he could defend the undefendable was to branch off onto other topics, which have their own merit outside of the world of rugby.
Getting uppity, us New Zealanders? Isn't that what the rednecks used to say in the US prior to desegregation? I'm not wanting to branch off into another subject, just wanting some clarification on Prestwick's context.
As far as I can see it, the most of the english clubs are so crap that no-one in the SH wants their talent. Yet they want ours. Learn to harden up and play good rugby UK people. You guys have huge population and money. Only one of which you use!
Bizzare post man. You made zero ground on that one.
Prestwick was bizarrely scatter-shot in his response. Talking about doctors and health systems? What are we talking about here? This is rugby we're talking about. It seems the only way he could defend the undefendable was to branch off onto other topics, which have their own merit outside of the world of rugby.
Getting uppity, us New Zealanders? Isn't that what the rednecks used to say in the US prior to desegregation? I'm not wanting to branch off into another subject, just wanting some clarification on Prestwick's context.
As far as I can see it, the most of the english clubs are so crap that no-one in the SH wants their talent. Yet they want ours. Learn to harden up and play good rugby UK people. You guys have huge population and money. Only one of which you use!
Bizzare post man. You made zero ground on that one.
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Prestwick
Guest
The only reason why they want SH talent is in a matter of Keith Barwell-esque political expediency, especially when one burns one's bridges by demolishing one's youth academy. The Union demands that your best players be put on international duty, so you cover yourselves by buying in players who aren't British. It isn't exactly rocket science and it isn't written out in the stars that all the players have to be SH. In fact many clubs have bought more Welsh, Irish, French and other non SH players in the last five odd years.
And how exactly is comparing one job of which international poaching is a highlight (i.e. Rugby) with another (i.e. Doctors and Nurses) termed as "scattershot"?
Like it or not, both are professional forms of employment and both suffer from forms of poaching which cripple systems. Pacific Island rugby has been damaged by players going abroad and professing love to their new found nation be it New Zealand, Australia or even the UK through the Army. And, perversely, we're seeing New Zealand rugby being damaged by poaching from NH clubs.
Like it or not, this is very similar to the poaching of medical talent from the third world (something else which, I might add, the government and people of nations like New Zealand refuse to acknowledge), you are essentially stripping that nation of their best talent and jeapordising development in that area.
Rather than branch off into something else, I was actually justifying my point of view by reminding you guys of other areas where you (and indeed I) poach from without due care and consideration.
Sadly, uppity* is something which is still valid with you chaps because you do still seem rather stung by something which does have a ring of truth to it. We already do play some good rugby and are pretty hardened (less of which could be said of some the All Blacks who seem to wear mascara before they take to the field, wield handbags at the slightest inkling of a fight) so we can handle ourselves thank you very much.
What is quite amusing is how Ripper uses sarcasm to try and muddy the waters to compare what I said to something approaching slavery? Now, now Mr Ripper, one should not attempt to put words in someone elses' mouth! Obviously, when I say poach, I mean through promises of more money, a better quality of life, etc. This is how a good many Fijians and Samoans come to the UK through the Army or to the GP.
Sadly, we will forever be separated more by mere rhetoric rather than facts on this one. At least I'm willing to stand up and admit the things are done in my name, not trumpeting it as an amazing fantastic facet of the game up here but at least I acknowledge that it happens.
*A word firmly the reserve of the land of Jeeves & Wooster rather than that of the Deep South, sorry to disappoint you in your rather weird quest to try and sidetrack this conversation, that was a rather long and wild shot of your own.
And how exactly is comparing one job of which international poaching is a highlight (i.e. Rugby) with another (i.e. Doctors and Nurses) termed as "scattershot"?
Like it or not, both are professional forms of employment and both suffer from forms of poaching which cripple systems. Pacific Island rugby has been damaged by players going abroad and professing love to their new found nation be it New Zealand, Australia or even the UK through the Army. And, perversely, we're seeing New Zealand rugby being damaged by poaching from NH clubs.
Like it or not, this is very similar to the poaching of medical talent from the third world (something else which, I might add, the government and people of nations like New Zealand refuse to acknowledge), you are essentially stripping that nation of their best talent and jeapordising development in that area.
Rather than branch off into something else, I was actually justifying my point of view by reminding you guys of other areas where you (and indeed I) poach from without due care and consideration.
Sadly, uppity* is something which is still valid with you chaps because you do still seem rather stung by something which does have a ring of truth to it. We already do play some good rugby and are pretty hardened (less of which could be said of some the All Blacks who seem to wear mascara before they take to the field, wield handbags at the slightest inkling of a fight) so we can handle ourselves thank you very much.
What is quite amusing is how Ripper uses sarcasm to try and muddy the waters to compare what I said to something approaching slavery? Now, now Mr Ripper, one should not attempt to put words in someone elses' mouth! Obviously, when I say poach, I mean through promises of more money, a better quality of life, etc. This is how a good many Fijians and Samoans come to the UK through the Army or to the GP.
Sadly, we will forever be separated more by mere rhetoric rather than facts on this one. At least I'm willing to stand up and admit the things are done in my name, not trumpeting it as an amazing fantastic facet of the game up here but at least I acknowledge that it happens.
*A word firmly the reserve of the land of Jeeves & Wooster rather than that of the Deep South, sorry to disappoint you in your rather weird quest to try and sidetrack this conversation, that was a rather long and wild shot of your own.
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Ripper
Guest
Jesus Christ, you still don't get it....
THESE KIDS ARE NEW ZEALANDERS, VIRTUALLY ALL OF THEM HAVE LIVED IN NEW ZEALAND 20+ YEARS. ALL THIER SCHOOLING WAS IN NEW ZEALAND, MOST OF THE TIME THEY NEVER PLAYED AN ORGANISED GAME OF RUGBY BEFORE THEY ARRIVED IN NEW ZEALAND
What can't you comprehend about that concept - they are only what they are because they have spent their whole Rugby playing lives in the New Zealand system, do you think that if a Kid who comes here when he was 3, and makes the All Blacks when he is 21 is poached, just because he was born in another country, but has spent 6/7 of his life in New Zealand?
And your Doctors analogy doesn't work - they are "poached" when they are 20 years plus and have already proven themselves, these kids immigrate when they are still wearing nappies and can't even walk.
THESE KIDS ARE NEW ZEALANDERS, VIRTUALLY ALL OF THEM HAVE LIVED IN NEW ZEALAND 20+ YEARS. ALL THIER SCHOOLING WAS IN NEW ZEALAND, MOST OF THE TIME THEY NEVER PLAYED AN ORGANISED GAME OF RUGBY BEFORE THEY ARRIVED IN NEW ZEALAND
What can't you comprehend about that concept - they are only what they are because they have spent their whole Rugby playing lives in the New Zealand system, do you think that if a Kid who comes here when he was 3, and makes the All Blacks when he is 21 is poached, just because he was born in another country, but has spent 6/7 of his life in New Zealand?
And your Doctors analogy doesn't work - they are "poached" when they are 20 years plus and have already proven themselves, these kids immigrate when they are still wearing nappies and can't even walk.
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C A Iversen
Guest
Crazy! I was merely asking, Prestwick, asking about your usage of the word. It was not an attempt to lead the conversation anywhere. You shoved those words about the deep south into MY mouth. Re-read my post and you have exactly, and I mean conclusively done that, lol! I merely suggested the first meaning of the word uppity that came to my mind. Unlike you I never told you what you meant. Thats one thing proven.
Now onto the rest. You are an interpretationalist. Relying on metaphor to make arguments about unrelated topics.
Yes, there are similarities. Though they are seperate issues. You can't argue about rugby players changing places for money by talking about doctors and army personnel. Two different issues. You accuse Ripper of muddying issues and you can't prove anything by staying on topic. Laughable.
"sorry to disappoint you in your rather weird quest to try and sidetrack this conversation"
You were absolutely, categorically the first person in our conversation (you and me) to sidetrack the issue into other tonally similar, but technically irrelevant issues.
(I seriously doubt when the player drain issue is discussed in the sports media at some stage, that anyone will bring up the doctors and the army, if they do........I surrender. You are right)
As for Nonu, the mascara and the handbag incident? That was a one off and it's makes a grade A straw to grasp at.
Umaga or Nonu would eat 99% of all UK players for breakfast for hardness and it's being kind to say that theres one in a hundred who could take them. Now don't twist this and make it 100%, as even I know that there is the odd British hardman would could take them on his day. Although as usual, begin your word twisting.
You never answered why the lack of demand for NH players in the SH? Hahahahahahaha.
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SaintsFan_Webby
Guest
Not quite sure how the conversation came around to hardness of players, but bullshit would Umaga and Nonu eat 99% of all UK players for breakfast.
Contest skill levels by all means, but don't start belittling British and Irish players for being soft. The pace of the Super may be higher, but I firmly believe that the physically intensity of a competition of a competition like the Guinness Premiership is greater.
There are some grizzled old thugs lurking in the dark corners of UK rugby, don't think they wouldn't be able to give back twice as much as they could take from the likes of Umaga or Nonu.
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C A Iversen
Guest
I know this is going to make what I said sound like stating the obvious, but I was referring to every club player. Down to the lowest grade.
If I referred to Guinness Premiership only, then I would say that they would be harder than about 60% of the players.
If you were wondering how it got around to players being hard, the comments I made were responses to Prestwick who was making reference to Umagas handbag incident and Nonu's mascara. He implied that made them soft.
So, my 99% was referring to all UK players from social grades up. Basically saying that if those two are soft, then whats he saying about nearly everyone who plays rugby in the UK.
If I referred to Guinness Premiership only, then I would say that they would be harder than about 60% of the players.
If you were wondering how it got around to players being hard, the comments I made were responses to Prestwick who was making reference to Umagas handbag incident and Nonu's mascara. He implied that made them soft.
So, my 99% was referring to all UK players from social grades up. Basically saying that if those two are soft, then whats he saying about nearly everyone who plays rugby in the UK.
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Dumbo
Guest
Look guys it's easy... kids, Kiwi's steal them and Aussies throw them off boats...
Prestwick your line "Pacific Island rugby has been damaged by players going abroad..." is just a bit on the ignorant side of the fence. Really, it is.
And "Sadly, we will forever be separated more by mere rhetoric rather than facts on this one."
I'd like to say "are you a tool?" but think that would get me into trouble so I'll say "that’s a very interesting line that could cast aspersions on your character".
But looking at the two sides of the story (and being biased) I'd say there's more fact to Rippers argument than rhetoric.
"we will forever be seperated... " sounds tragic.
Prestwick your line "Pacific Island rugby has been damaged by players going abroad..." is just a bit on the ignorant side of the fence. Really, it is.
And "Sadly, we will forever be separated more by mere rhetoric rather than facts on this one."
I'd like to say "are you a tool?" but think that would get me into trouble so I'll say "that’s a very interesting line that could cast aspersions on your character".
But looking at the two sides of the story (and being biased) I'd say there's more fact to Rippers argument than rhetoric.
"we will forever be seperated... " sounds tragic.
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QKXV
Guest
First let me say this topic is starting to be a very thrilling read.
Can I just ask, on grounds of the statement above, is this why the English national side is struggling so much, because your own home grown talent has nowhere to develop?
What I understand from Pres' statement (and do excuse as English is not my first language) is that the youth academy doesn't provide young players to the clubs and even if they did, there are many positions in clubs going to SH players that some english players struggle to get enough club exposure?
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SaintsFan_Webby
Guest
I assumed you would be comparing Umaga and Nonu to players plying their trade professionally in the UK. Guys who are paid to go to the gym and build their physique as the two Kiwis in question are, rather than total amateurs (myself included) who play for fun.
Even so, I think you'd get a few suprises about what lurks in a British scrum at even the lowliest grassroots level.
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Prestwick
Guest
My friend, in some cases (such as with Northampton until very recently) you actually need a Youth Academy to start with!
You have had this five or six year gap where the facilities for youth development were either there and not being used or were disbanded and dismantled. You had (and I think still have) a crazy situation of talent going through the national academies and the club academies and then never really playing any rugby at all.
The system that we have therefore should dictate that young talent, before it comes of age, should be capitalised (i.e. you should be able to make some cash out of them) by farming them out to the lower divisions on loan. This is what has been done with some diamond geezers like Tom Varndell when he went to Bedford.
You do now though have a situation where young players are either pressed into the ranks of the Premiership first XV too early or don't play a match for a long while. That is one, just one of many reasons why England have come up short between 2005 - 2007.
Change is in the air however, those who go through the National Academies are being farmed to National League One for work experience and just playing some rugby while the Clubs, who have always had an A league, are trying to put as many kids through that as possible, just to give them rugby experience. Many GP clubs are so desperate to get as many kids through the doors of their Youth Academies that they've actually outstripped the infrastructure which served up the stars for the 2003 RWC success!
Saracens for example had adverts out across Watford and parts of Hertfordshire and North London begging for Bed & Breakfast, Pubs-with-rooms and small independent hotel owners to rent rooms out to the club so they could house Youth Academy talent because they are literally running out of places to billet the chaps!
So the Clubs are trying. And like something like the Soviet War Machine, the vast resources of the English Clubs are slowly being trained on the objective of full youth development, something which clubs both in the GP and NL1 could benefit from as well as the RFU.
The next problem? Actually getting them on the first XV
No, I wasn't shoving anything down your mouth, I was merely informing you that the word "uppity" in the UK is firmly the reserve of the British middle and upper classes than of some "redneck" as you so bluntly put it. You may make your claims sir but your intentions were clear enough in how you worded your post! That, my good friend is one thing proven!
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QKXV
Guest
By the sounds of it we're better of than you poor sods, quota or not.
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Prestwick
Guest
I think once more and more players of high quality start to filter through in bigger and bigger quantities then it will make good financial sense for Clubs to recruit from home rather than from abroad. Brian Ashton can only nick 30 players a go and the Saxons can only nick another 20-30 too so that, coupled with a structured season would save the clubs an extraordinary amount of dough rather than splurging on SH hasbeens.
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BokMagic
Guest
Geez, this is turning into a great thread, and very educational for me also.
I can appreciate the whole poaching of PI players from a NZ perspective much better now. Honestly didn`t know that most of the guys were NZ born and bred. But looking at it from that perspective, calling the Roks of the world poached players is like calling 2 recent Bok captains, Bob Skinstad and Gary Teichmann, poached players too. Both were born in Zimbabwe, but their parents emigrated down here when they were about 5 years old. Which would make them more South African than Zimbabwean, for sure. Either that, or SARU were as good at identifying Bok captaincy credentials at pre-school level.
Thanks for setting the record straight guys.
I can appreciate the whole poaching of PI players from a NZ perspective much better now. Honestly didn`t know that most of the guys were NZ born and bred. But looking at it from that perspective, calling the Roks of the world poached players is like calling 2 recent Bok captains, Bob Skinstad and Gary Teichmann, poached players too. Both were born in Zimbabwe, but their parents emigrated down here when they were about 5 years old. Which would make them more South African than Zimbabwean, for sure. Either that, or SARU were as good at identifying Bok captaincy credentials at pre-school level.
Thanks for setting the record straight guys.
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Ripper
Guest
Maybe we use the same talent scouts?
