All Blacks vs Springboks, July 10th 2010

[nickdnz]

I do very much understand what yoou're trying to say. My problem is this:

While I agree with you that Francois knew what he was doing when he decided to play over-seas, so did the other guys. It is the EXACT same situation, but he is making allowances for the other guys, not France Steyn. Take Jean de Villers. We have Olivier and de Jongh playing great rugby, yet he chooses to play JDV. Look at Butch James. Steyn and Grant are both playing fantastic rugby but he's still keeping James in the mix. The bottom line is, he is showing double-standards. The simple fact is that he doesn't like Francois Steyn, so he will look for the first chance to drop him, but he will keep his other buddies in the team, even if they are playing over-seas.

PS: If he despises Steyn so much, why couldn't he then put Riaan Viljoen at fullback? That guy is incredible!

PSS: I know he actually isn't gay for those guys, I was just going for a little dramatization.

Yeah, I do agree with your point about, if you are opening up selection to off shore players, then just select the best for the job, I eluded to that in my other post. Obviously I think PdV rates Kirshner higher than most people do. I personally don't see it but, meh. JdV is on the wing again...For god sakes. Aplon showed how he is a dangerous wing, all that JdV will offer on the wing is defence.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I'm not very happy with the line up seeing JdV go to waste being moved to the side. Why not put him in his fav position and use Gio Aplon as the #14? Or is that a weird idea?

 

[Jer1cho]

Francois Hougaard at 14 and Aplon at 15 would have worked too. Or Hougaard at 9, van den Heever at 14, and Aplon at 15. This is not the best team we have i'm sad to say, Can't see us winning this one.

 

[SpanishBob]

Francois Hougaard at 14 and Aplon at 15 would have worked too. Or Hougaard at 9, van den Heever at 14, and Aplon at 15. This is not the best team we have i'm sad to say, Can't see us winning this one.

Agree. De Villiers is expendable right now.

 

[rugbywriter]

No, it's not that Jean de Villiers is a bad player. I still highly rate him as a centre. Let's not forget, he was Springbok of the year in 2008. He had one bad season. We should have worked on him at centre now so that he regains his form by the 2011 WC. What the hell is him being on the wing going to benefit? And seriously, I think that if Kirchner keeps being selected, us Springbok fans should really do something about it. I'm sorry but this is just spitting in our faces

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Calling up Kirchner and leaving Francois Steyn to watch the match on tv... What is PdV doing..? Man o man. Now JdV on the wing which is not his best position! Especially after the top performances against Wales and France by him I would have put Aplon in the starting line up. I would like to see how he will do against the AB's

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pretty good Springbok team. Although I personally would have liked too see an up-and-comer or two more I can't argue that the guys PdV have more experience. Guys like Januarie, James and de Villiers have done the job before and I can't blame the coach for sticking with these guys. Olivier and Kirschner ahead of de Jongh and Frans Steyn, though... not too happy about that. Both have had more than enough chances and not picking Steyn smacks of double standards. As for Chiliboy, although I think Gary Botha still has what it takes and my 3rd choice rake being Tiaan Liebenberg, I can't argue that Chiliboy hasn't taken his chances with Bismarck injured. I'm not convinced yet but not overly worried. NZ will be his big test. All in all, with Bismarck, Lionel Mapoe, JP Pietersen, Fourie du Preez, Heinrich Brussouw and Juan Smith not available this team is not too far off what I would prefer:

1 Guthro Steenkamp
2 John Smit (c)
3 Jannie du Plessis (not the bussiest on the field and discipline a problem but steadiest for the scrum)
4 Bakkies Botha
5 Victor Matfield
6 Schalk Burger
7 Francois Louw
8 Pierre Spies

9 Ruan Pienaar
10 Morne Steyn
11 Bryan Habana
12 Juan de Jongh
13 Jacque Fourie
14 Gio Aplon
15 Francois Steyn

16 CJ van der Linde (best all rounder IMO)
17 Gary Botha
18 Andries Bekker (great S14 but Matfield still the king)
19 Danie Rossouw (Potgieter overrated and Danie is great cover while Smith and Brussouw are out)
20 Francois Hougaard (great scrummie and so good a footballer the Bulls just had to find a spot in S14)
21 Peter Grant (can cover the centres as well)
22 Patrick Lambie (to come on from the bench: we need depth at 15 and I will bet that Lambie will be the next young gun to make the step up much like Brussouw and Morne Steyn did last year and de Jongh, Aplon and Francois Louw this year.)

Can't wait for the game.

 

[Iron Mike]

I do very much understand what yoou're trying to say. My problem is this:

While I agree with you that Francois knew what he was doing when he decided to play over-seas, so did the other guys. It is the EXACT same situation, but he is making allowances for the other guys, not France Steyn. Take Jean de Villers. We have Olivier and de Jongh playing great rugby, yet he chooses to play JDV. Look at Butch James. Steyn and Grant are both playing fantastic rugby but he's still keeping James in the mix. The bottom line is, he is showing double-standards. The simple fact is that he doesn't like Francois Steyn, so he will look for the first chance to drop him, but he will keep his other buddies in the team, even if they are playing over-seas.

PS: If he despises Steyn so much, why couldn't he then put Riaan Viljoen at fullback? That guy is incredible!

PSS: I know he actually isn't gay for those guys, I was just going for a little dramatization.

I think you have a problem with black people, I really do. You seem to go against every selection made if they are black and seem to always give white ''alternatives''. Every single time I read one of your comments on there being something wrong with the Springbok team, this always happens. I think you need to stop being so racist and just enjoy the rugby. If you recall in the game against Wales, Francois Steyn was absolutely rubbish and got subbed a bit after half time, that is how bad he was. He may have played well last year, but his Racing Metro form has been terrible and apart from a 62 metre goal kick, there was nothing to highlight in this last rugby season of Francois Steyn. Get off your high horse, stop being racist, and pull your dick out of Francois Steyns ass.

 

[nickdnz]

I think you have a problem with black people, I really do. You seem to go against every selection made if they are black and seem to always give white ''alternatives''. Every single time I read one of your comments on there being something wrong with the Springbok team, this always happens. I think you need to stop being so racist and just enjoy the rugby. If you recall in the game against Wales, Francois Steyn was absolutely rubbish and got subbed a bit after half time, that is how bad he was. He may have played well last year, but his Racing Metro form has been terrible and apart from a 62 metre goal kick, there was nothing to highlight in this last rugby season of Francois Steyn. Get off your high horse, stop being racist, and pull your dick out of Francois Steyns ass.

I don't think the post you took problem with illistrates your point very well, as he has not mentioned the colour of anyones skin and offered a better alternative to JDV in the shape of a coloured player de Jongh. There have been a number of rugbywirters posts I've taken exception with, but I think his sentiments are shared by many, in that if PdV is going to select JdV out of position, why not select Steyn. It may not be something I fully agree with, but it seems like a valid argument. This post was just looking for a fight, and I think you're out of line.

 

[SavageLez]

Good reply, totally agree!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Completely useless response from you Iron Mike. He talks about replacements for Butch James, as far as I know as white as a cracker. He criticizes the pick for Jean de Villiers who's only black part of his body are his pupils (as far as I know). Get over yourself and stop looking for racial arguments with South Africans.

 

[Amobokoboko]

Maybe we could get back to the original topic.
only 1,5 days left

 

[Seaton]

Yeah, I have to admit I'm a little bit confused on the Steyn story.

PdV did change his selection policy to select over seas player, but from what I understood, players that are in South Africa would get selected ahead of them. My problem is this.

By rights, I don't think changing the selection policy is a good idea at all. All you do by selecting players from overseas, is encourage players to leave your country for a higher pay check, while having no encentive to keep them in South Africa. This policy acts as a quick fix to a problem that doesn't really exsist, as even with no Steyn, James and de Villiers (for now) you still have a very strong team. What it will do is weaken the domestic competition in South Africa as the top players will all be in Europe.
My issue is this -

If you say you are going to select over seas players, just do it. It was a bad idea in the first place, but when you start nit-picking about the selection of players not based on how talented they are, but on how talented they are + if they play in SA, the selection process becomes a real mess.

In Steyn's case, from what I gather from PdV, it is a complication between Racing Metro and the Springboks that is why he is not selected. While I can see many South African's frustrations that the most talented man for the job is not getting selected, I think it must be taken into account that by rights, when he left, he was not in the frame to be selected for South Africa at all, as the selection policy had not been loosened. He really has little right to expect to be in the Springboks, especially seeing as one of the reasons listed for him leaving was to escape from national pressure and expectations. I think PdV's stance on selecting over seas based players was a sign of him folding, and I think it will be shown as a weakness for players to exploit.

I really dislike Kirshner as a player. I think he is uncreative, a weak defender and target for the All Blacks. However, while he is not the best South African for the job, he does deserve a spot ahead of Steyn. Why? Because he is playing his rugby in South Africa, earning a lot less money and putting up with national criticism. Selecting Steyn ahead of Kirshner or any other fullback will send a very clear message to South African players. If you are important enough to the Springboks, you do not need to play in South Africa. People may not see this as big right now, but when Matfield is off to play his career in Toloun, Habanna has signed with Clermont, Fourie du Preez has signed a nice big bonus with the Osprays and Andres Bekker is captaining Newcastle, all of whom are still in the Springboks, you will find very quickly that the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers will no longer be competitive in the Super 14, and once those off-shore talent has gotten too old, South African reserves will have dried up.

That may be a very melo-dramatic take on what will happen, but in the long run, that is what you can expect when offshore talent is selected over home talent.

PS: SavageLes, you seem to switch back and forwards on who you think will win.

PSS: I don't think selecting Pienaar or Kirshner is based on PdV's homosexial feellings towards either player.

I dont think the overall policy has been changed, the only NH based players that are in the squad are BJ Botha and Butch James, and with the lack of real quality in terms of props and fly-halfs in SA, their selection could be to see if they can still provide at international level, in preparation for the World cup.
Both of those players are also on the bench, and have not played full seasons for their clubs, which might be why PDV needs another look at them

 

[Iron Mike]

I don't think the post you took problem with illistrates your point very well, as he has not mentioned the colour of anyones skin and offered a better alternative to JDV in the shape of a coloured player de Jongh. There have been a number of rugbywirters posts I've taken exception with, but I think his sentiments are shared by many, in that if PdV is going to select JdV out of position, why not select Steyn. It may not be something I fully agree with, but it seems like a valid argument. This post was just looking for a fight, and I think you're out of line.

Jean De Villiers started out as a winger, if you would recall and he has experience there. Francois Steyn isn't being selected because it is hard to monitor form for someone who is playing overseas and the players who have continued to play for the Boks while being overseas have played well in a Bok jersey this year, the one game that Francois Steyn played against Wales was a disaster, kicks went out on the full, his defence was all over the place and he never counter attacked, so I don't know why everyone is raving on about him. The only thing he brings to a game is his boot, which has been absolutely terrible as of late and with the laws this year favouring posession and counter attacking, he is surplas in requirements.

I wouldn't pick Francois Steyn based on 2010 form for any international team in the top tier, bar Ireland. What PDV is doing, is picking players based on form and although Zane Kirchner isn't the best, you have to make the best of what you have, much like the Wallabies with their front row.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Francois Steyn isn't being selected because it is hard to monitor form for someone who is playing overseas and the players who have continued to play for the Boks while being overseas have played well in a Bok jersey this year, the one game that Francois Steyn played against Wales was a disaster, kicks went out on the full, his defence was all over the place and he never counter attacked, so I don't know why everyone is raving on about him. The only thing he brings to a game is his boot, which has been absolutely terrible as of late and with the laws this year favouring posession and counter attacking, he is surplas in requirements.

So let me get this right:

First of all it's a ridiculous argument that it's hard to monitor form of someone playing overseas. We don't live in the 80's anymore. It's not a lot harder to check a Top 14 player's form than a Super 14 player's.

Second of all you want to kick Steyn out of the squad because of 1 bad match? If we would actually do that we wouldn't have any players left. People need a little bit of credit so 1 bad match won't cost them their place in the squad.

 

[rugbywriter]

I'm not going to try defend myself to Iron Mike. If he thinks I have a problem with black rugby players then good for him.

Anyway, here are my picks for probable outcomes:

We can probably expect the ABs to use their backs alot. South Africa will struggle on attack because of a completely paceless back-line (except Habana obviously). Jean isn't slow, but he isn't on par in terms of speed with most wingers. Olivier, Fourie and Kirchner are also not fast runners. This could very well be problematic, especially with the prop-paced Januarie at scrum-half. This is why I expect to see alot of play from the AB back-line.

They will also have to limit the ammount of line-outs in the game as the Boks will school them in that area - even though Donelly's jumping is looking very decent. The Bok loose trio is as always superb, and I expect the Boks to completely dominate at the breakdown, especially with Francois Louw's current form. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't dreading scrum time. While Jannie du Plessis has proven to be a solid scrummager, he seems to lose focus and give away penalties after enough time has elapsed. Smit's only real strong point these days is his accuracy when throwing in the line-out. I'm not his biggest fan, but I have to commend him on how rarely he throws the ball in skew. Everything else though is not up to standard. Gurthro has hit a very strange hot streak with his form. Just last year hardly anyone even wanted to see him in a Bulls jersey, and now he's playing some fine rugby. If he returns to his poor form (which sorry to say, will happen some day), Owen Franks is going to eat him alive.

I feel that Jane, Nonu, McCaw and Vito will be the stand-out players for the ABs. I would say Carter but he seems to be very up-and-down these days. I don't think Rockococo will do too well against the Springboks, who look very strong defensivly and won't allow him the space he needs. Why I feel Jane will play a huge part in this game is because Kirchner is simply going to kick the ball to him and Mils all day, and I'm sure we all know how Jane counter-attacks.

Deffinitely going to be a close one and to be completely honest.....I'm stumped when it comes to picking a winner

 

[ranger]

I would say Carter but he seems to be very up-and-down these days.

^ Wishfull thinking.

 

[Darwin]

^ Wishfull thinking.

I agree - Carter seems to back to his best. He was simply outstanding in the first test versus Wales!

 

[SelimNiai]

What time will this kick off in UK time.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

What time will this kick off in UK time.

8ish am

DAM WORD COUNT!