-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
And the Engage is Goooooooooooooooooooooone
- Thread starter Teh Mite
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
This is the crux of it for me. This trial seems like more window dressing but the IRB finally seem to be coming around to the need to de-power the scrum hit after years of ineffective tampering with the engagement process. The next step will be for teams to fold in and abandon the scrum hit with shoving only happening once the ball is put in by the scrumhalf.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2011
- Messages
- 8,021
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Agree, we could even return to having the ball put in straight.....
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 19,706
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,048
- Country Flag
This could be a good compromise between the system we currently have and removing the 'hit' altogether. Hopefully it will allow time for the props to bind correctly before the set command is called, as well as giving a second for the ref (and assistants) to check the binding. Only time will tell if really works, but hopefully at the very least it will give ref's the time to correctly call binding issues, instead of seemingly guessing at the moment. This in turn should allow time for the ref to better check the scrum halves feed into the scrum. At the moment the ref is being asked to look at more than one thing at a time, with binding and the feed often happening simultaneously. This is one thing I agree with Jiffy about, any rule changes should be made with the view of making the ref's life easier, and not complicating it further.
I think overall this is a sensible step to take, although as snoop says, I think the eventual solution will be to remove the 'hit' entirely.
I think overall this is a sensible step to take, although as snoop says, I think the eventual solution will be to remove the 'hit' entirely.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
As an aside, can a scrumhalf not just tilt the angle of the ball so that once it's thrown it straight, it's sure to bounce towards his own team?As a scrumhalf I hope this never happens.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,048
- Country Flag
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 19,706
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Yeah I'd do that if the ref is on my back and a lot of the pro's do that all of the time from what I see but at my level 99% of the time I can put it in almost to the second rows feet.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
I suppose so! I'm just thinking how teams will get around putting the ball in straight if refs start picking up on it. In theory putting the ball in straight should make it a 50:50 contest for the ball. Angling the ball for the put in increases the odds of winning it back on your own put in. If I'm a pro player, I know what I'd do!Or, you know, the hookers can just hook the ball?
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 10,107
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
As a hooker I can say if you can get away with crooked ball, do it. Barely any ball struck against the head professionally these days in the professional game.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2011
- Messages
- 8,021
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Which is a good thing because........
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 10,107
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Not saying it is, but so much focus on the shove that the importance of hooking has died. No one wants quick ball if they have an upper hand in the scrum. Hookers are too busy trying to get the upper hand in the shove to worry about hooking against the head. It's not a good thing, but it's what you get when scrums are such a mess.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 13,888
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Since start of the season its been ... Crouch ... Touch ... Set!
Pre-binding, I have a feeling will be quite difficult, can see why they want it, but realistically, its a move closer to Rugby League scrummaging.
Pre-binding, I have a feeling will be quite difficult, can see why they want it, but realistically, its a move closer to Rugby League scrummaging.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,048
- Country Flag
I don't see why it should de power the scrum, just remove some of the complexities surrounding trying to bind to tight shirts whilst in the process of taking the hit. I have a huge amount of sympathy for props, because sometimes there is little they can about missing their binding when there's little to get a hold of in the first place.
The crouch - touch - set process seems to have done little to improve the game at professional level, where all the problems exist. The scrums in this season's six nations thus far have been just as poor as before on the whole, with the majority ending in re-sets, free kicks and penalties. If anything it is this that is removing the importance of the scrum, because so precious little are actually completed, and penalties are sometimes just randomly handed out by refs.
Since I have never played in the front row, I'm not going to pretend to know everything about the scrum, or know if this will certainly help things, but looking at it logically, I see there is potential in this new process. Gotta wait to see it in action first though.
Out of interest, why do you think it'll be difficult to pre-bind Cymro? I don't see why it should be more difficult than binding whilst taking the hit at the very least. Whether it improves anything on the other hand.....
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 13,888
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
From how I interpret whats been set. Players will almost / will be 'engaged' together. But then it goes on to say after the set ... they can come together. Also if the referee's are going to check the binding, it will take time out. If they were going to do it, might as well start both front rows in an 'engaged' position and start from there.
As for the crouch-touch-set, that is going on now. Problem is there is to much inconsistency with the officials around the scrum area. The speed on the 'engaged' call, is a major issue, it differs between officials which does not help.
Two issue this will probably solve is binding and also making the front rows 'engage / hit' up. Quite a few international props are exposing the referee's lack of knowledge at the scrum by going straight down to win a penalty, effectively coning the referee.
As for the crouch-touch-set, that is going on now. Problem is there is to much inconsistency with the officials around the scrum area. The speed on the 'engaged' call, is a major issue, it differs between officials which does not help.
Two issue this will probably solve is binding and also making the front rows 'engage / hit' up. Quite a few international props are exposing the referee's lack of knowledge at the scrum by going straight down to win a penalty, effectively coning the referee.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2011
- Messages
- 8,021
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Front rows should just come together like they did years before and then not shove until the ball goes in (straight). Really really dont understand why they tried messing with the scrums they are the only part of the game that has gone backwards in the last 15 years. (or down)
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,048
- Country Flag
Yeh, I know what you mean. Just for clarification, I'm not suggesting the ref goes around looking at all four binds in detail, but instead he takes care of the open side, while the blindside assistant ref checks the other. Doesn't need to be a long look, just a split second, which is still more than the ref currently has. Of course this still doesn't stop the weaker scrummaging prop from slipping his binding, but at least then it should be more obvious who's purposefully lost their bind, well in theory....
One thing this does not solve is teams going early, and this is where I think having both teams simply engage gently before pushing is allowed, like it used to be, would be of benefit. Still this is a step in that direction, which can only be a good thing imo.
I also agree with you regarding referee's lack of knowledge. One aspect I current;y find really annoying, is referee's not penalising sides for standing up under pressure. I know some prefer that in these circumstances the scrum is just allowed to continue, but this takes away from the stronger scrum. Ultimately, standing up is the same thing as collapsing in terms of relieving the pressure, so it should be penalised in the same way. Some ref's do this, others ignore it completely.
I think this is too simplistic a view of the scrum. It's easy to automatically criticise rule changes for the problems at scrum time, but imo it has occurred because there is more 'streetwise' play going on nowadays. If a prop loses the hit, they are prepared to take it down in order to get a re-set and hopefully get more parity the second time around. I'm sure Adam Jones has hinted to this in the past (not totally sure though), and he's not a weak scrummager. The law changes haven't helped to aleviate these issues, but they haven't contributed imo.
Similar threads
