Anyone else getting bored by the Tri-Nations?

[Jethro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wertas @ Aug 14 2009, 02:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You can't just include Argentina in Tri Nations. It is needed minimum two Super 14 franchizes from Argentina.[/b]

There's no requirement to have S14 franchises in order to enter T3, about the only requirement is that it generates TV sales for Uncle Murdoch.

 

[Melhor Time]

The Tri Nations was boring in 2004 with two games. Now with three it is simply a bore. Its ridiculous to not have Argentina involved. Will they be added? Yes. When? 2012. How can one be sure of this? The answer is one cannot but signs are pretty clear that this is what has been negotiated by the UAR with SANZAR and that it has been commonly accepted. IRB pressure has SANZAR knowing that it is no longer utterly not acceptable to keep the door closed.

Do Argentina need to be in Super Rugby first? No they don't. The issue is that the existing contracts for the Tri Nations are a combined package including the Super 14. When the contracts are re-done they will be changed so that Argentina can at long last take their place in the 3N.

In the meantime Argentina's ''A'' side (actually not A but lets call it that. They are at most times Argentina's all Argentina based team), Los Jaguares, are going to become increasingly involved. Do not be surprized to see them added to the Pacific Nations Cup possibly in 2011, or all going well 2010. Los Jaguars have good wins over full strenght test sides from Namibia, Chile, Uruguay, Canada and the USA. They have some outstanding players. Argentina's win vs England in Salta, Arg in June featured Santiago Fernandez, Genaro Fessia and Gonzalo Camacho in the starting lineup. All did so despite being Argentina based players, not European professionals. Fernandez should really be playing flyhalf professionally as he is very good. As good as Stephen Donald without question. With players like Fernandez staying in Argentina they will also likely be added to the expanded Super 14 when it becomes 18 or so teams. There are 40 players based in Argentina who are professionals that train and are ready to form a team. Add 4 or so years to this and they will be that much better. No match for the rubbish of the Cheetahs or the Reds.

Most importantly, for admission purposes, Argentina are keeping most of their next generation of stars in Argentina which makes it an easy excercise of playing Argentina. Currently New Zealand and Australia do not like the idea of playing Argentina because the tri Nations takes place during the European off season and the start of the season itself which means players are not avaliable. This is the purpose of Los Jaguars. So far signs are good, it just sucks haveing to wait and wait and wait for Argentina to get into a tournament.

Lastly, when Melbourne are added as the new Super Rugby team it is highly likely that 3 or 4 Argentina based players will join the team. If not they will simply be utterly poor like Queensland and this will mean the ARU lose money as interest will be very low if the team is not competitive. Step up Fernandez and co.

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wertas @ Aug 14 2009, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You can't just include Argentina in Tri Nations. It is needed minimum two Super 14 franchizes from Argentina.[/b]

I disagree. With proper negotiation, it will be entirely possible to have Argentinean players released from the Europeans clubs to play in the Tri Nations.

 

[QLD]

I love the rolling maul too, and forwards just bashing their opponents through hit ups and pick and drives. Australia have always been too soft to do this though and love their kicking instead. This happens at my team, I tell the halfback to keep it in the forwards most of the game because our backs would f*** it up or kick it away. He then goes out to steal the ball from a rolling maul still moving 5m out from the tryline to pass to the backs who f*** it up again. Try gone begging.

 

[wertas]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (William18 @ Aug 14 2009, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wertas @ Aug 14 2009, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't just include Argentina in Tri Nations. It is needed minimum two Super 14 franchizes from Argentina.[/b]

I disagree. With proper negotiation, it will be entirely possible to have Argentinean players released from the Europeans clubs to play in the Tri Nations.
[/b][/quote]
I don't think that it is possible now. Best argentinians players are in the north and clubs will not releas them. Season structure should be change or Argentina should have a pool of players in the SH. Now most of them are amateurs.

 

[William18]

If, to include Argentina in the Tri Nations, we also had to put them in the S14 I would not support that. I think it's a bit different working out travel arrangements for a whole tournament then getting a country to fly there once. In New Zealand there is something like one flight a week from Auckland to Argentina. Say that flight was on a Saturday when the team was also meant to be playing another game? Anyway, crowds are low enough to watch South African teams play. I can't see many turning up to watch the Buneos Aires Leopards or what ever they would be called.

 

[wayner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 14 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In the meantime Argentina's ''A'' side (actually not A but lets call it that. They are at most times Argentina's all Argentina based team), Los Jaguares, are going to become increasingly involved. Do not be surprized to see them added to the Pacific Nations Cup possibly in 2011, or all going well 2010.[/b]

This year they played in the Churchill cup wthich conflicts with the PacNations - why not stay with the Churchill as the competition is comparable with England Saxons, Ireland A, Canada, USA, etc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 14 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most importantly, for admission purposes, Argentina are keeping most of their next generation of stars in Argentina which makes it an easy excercise of playing Argentina.[/b]

How can they do this? If they players are good enough they will attract interest from a European team. Given the economic situation in Argentina in recent years I can't see the Argie Union or clubs having enough money to keep them at home. Even is they got 1 or 2 S14 teams would they generate enough revenue? Or will they change their selection criteria to force you to play at home, like the other SH nations.

 

[Wally]

English rugby is so **** and boring.

 

[Melhor Time]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 14 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In the meantime Argentina's ''A'' side (actually not A but lets call it that. They are at most times Argentina's all Argentina based team), Los Jaguares, are going to become increasingly involved. Do not be surprized to see them added to the Pacific Nations Cup possibly in 2011, or all going well 2010.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wayner @ Aug 15 2009, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

This year they played in the Churchill cup wthich conflicts with the PacNations - why not stay with the Churchill as the competition is comparable with England Saxons, Ireland A, Canada, USA, etc..[/b]

Thats correct, they occur at the same time. The thing, however, is that the Pacific nations Cup is owned by the IRB but the Churchill Cup is not. The IRB are the funders, not entirely but virtually, of the Pladar program which means they can put Argentina in there easily unlike getting them into the Tri Nations. Australia A withdrew from the Pacific Nations Cup and so there is a vacant spot. Getting Argentina into the Tri Nations is the goal of the Jaguars. By having the Jaguars play in the IRB Pac Nat´s Cup exposure would be great.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 14 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most importantly, for admission purposes, Argentina are keeping most of their next generation of stars in Argentina which makes it an easy excercise of playing Argentina.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wayner @ Aug 14 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

How can they do this? If they players are good enough they will attract interest from a European team. Given the economic situation in Argentina in recent years I can't see the Argie Union or clubs having enough money to keep them at home. Even is they got 1 or 2 S14 teams would they generate enough revenue? Or will they change their selection criteria to force you to play at home, like the other SH nations.[/b]

Under the Jaguars system players are paid and trained at an incredibly high level. A level that is far superior to anything that Argentina has ever had. Now that the players are, at last, being paid they can be comfortable staying in Argentina. Some are leaving and will always do so. Juan Figallo, Gonzalo Camacho and some others have left Argentina for the new European season but plenty of stars have not. Santiago Fernandez who is better than Stephen Donald is staying.

Any economic problems impacting on Argentina´s economy are not important at all because the IRB are the funders of the Pladar program not Argentina rugby or the country itself. The Jaguars, therefore being IRB funded, will not have any problems in finding money to keep players at home. There is, however, a problem in that URBA clubs (Buenos Aires) are not happy with professionals playing in their competition.

Argentina can play anywhere within their country at get a big crowd. For instance, 2009 fullhouse in Salta vs England. 2009 fullhouse in Buenos Aires and Rosario vs Scotland, over 40,000 in Cordoba vs Italy. All these game were without some key Pumas players. Going back to 2007, before Argentina´s presence was noticed by many outside of the country and indeed by many within it they also got good crowds like vs Ireland in Santa Fe and Buenos Aires and vs Italy in Mendoza in June 2007. Previously Argentina have had 70,000 fullhouse crowds at the counrty´s largest stadium (River Plate) vs South Africa and New Zealand in 2000 and 2001. Therefore, in terms of the Super 14, I see no reason to be worried. Interest is clearly there, north, south, east and west. Argentina would have one team based in Buenos Aires and another based in the hinterland, potentially in Cordoba.

Argentina would not change their selection criteria unless they were forced to do so, which is not likely. What is happening, which many people writting on this topic fail to realize, is that Argentina are keeping their next generation of stars in Argentina. Names like Santiago Fernandez, Benjamin Urdapilleta, Agustin Figerolla and Genaro Fessia are in the Pumas and are first choice or close to bieng so yet are all Argentina based. Others like Agustin Creevy and Tomas de Vedia have returned from Europe to enter the new pro system in the country. All are young and eyeing places at the World Cup. This is revolutionary but is something the previous generation wanted. Agustin Pichot said in 2006 when, the UAR almost went bankrupt, that he and virtually all Argentina players in Europe want to play professionally at home. He said some, like Juan Hernandez, would stay, but not many. Hernandez, has since left Europe for the Super 14 in South Africa. Do not be surpized to see the Super 14 sign a number of Jaguars players. The competition certainly needs them. The best player for the Johannesburg team (Lions) is Todd Clever, the USA captain. Says a lot doesn´t it?

 

[Steve-o]

Great post there Melhor Time. Overall true and thought out well. Unfortunately I'm have to totally disagree with your last comment. Calling Clever the best player for the Lions is a bit optimistic! Especially considering he mostly plays off the bench as an impact player because he's considered light for a loose forward. I have the utmost respect for him though, turning down NH money so he could play rugby with the big boys. He's tenacity and determination have been well received by Lions fans. It's great seeing him play here and hope he stays longer.

 

[Thingimubob]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wally @ Aug 16 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

English rugby is so **** and boring.[/b]

Bit of a pointless post?

Agree with Steve-o, calling Clever the best player in the Lions is a bit off-target, but still a very well thought out post Melhor-Time. I really hope it goes to plan, as Argentina really need an annual competition, and it would really spice up the Tri-Nations and Super 14.Just hoping they would be able to compete, as without a big chunk of their top players they tend to struggle, and if a deal isn't struck with the NH Clubs/Profesional Argentine clubs don't get off the ground, it'd be liekly they'd be without them.

 

[TRUE LEGND]

Most people who'd think the TN is boring is outsiders looking in... The game between Aus v NZ was spectacular enough to say otherwise

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TRUE LEGND @ Aug 23 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most people who'd think the TN is boring is outsiders looking in... The game between Aus v NZ was spectacular enough to say otherwise[/b]

Everyone was relieved to see the ball going through the hands. Still not top quality, not much pattern to the game - but exciting in the end.

SA away are the big tests, including November.

 

[cyRil]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TRUE LEGND @ Aug 23 2009, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most people who'd think the TN is boring is outsiders looking in... The game between Aus v NZ was spectacular enough to say otherwise[/b]

I must have been standing on Jupiter if that match was 'spectacular'.

 

[TRUE LEGND]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cyRil of Ospreylia @ Aug 23 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TRUE LEGND @ Aug 23 2009, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most people who'd think the TN is boring is outsiders looking in... The game between Aus v NZ was spectacular enough to say otherwise[/b]

I must have been standing on Jupiter if that match was 'spectacular'.
[/b][/quote]
I pretty much think you were BTW we always thought anything upward past Austrailia was considered either jupiter or Mars

 

[Bowerman]

I don't find it boring, but I think the reason is that most of the posters here are from Australia, England, Wales, NZ, etc. and have been saturated in Rugby, the way I'm saturated in hockey and football (american football, screw soccer) and having these yearly test matches clumped as an event is just over doing it...that would be like the NHL taking the same three rivalry teams every year and making sure they play each other 30 times during the regular season...too much of a good thing i suppose.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wertas @ Aug 13 2009, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You can't just include Argentina in Tri Nations. It is needed minimum two Super 14 franchizes from Argentina.[/b]

The...*looks up flag in Wikipedia* LITHUANIAN is right!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TRUE LEGND @ Aug 23 2009, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Most people who'd think the TN is boring is outsiders looking in... The game between Aus v NZ was spectacular enough to say otherwise[/b]

:huh:


You see that look I gave you?

Thats the look German people give us English and Australians when we say how "spectacular" the Ashes are...

 

[TRUE LEGND]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Aug 23 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

:huh:


You see that look I gave you?

Thats the look German people give us English and Australians when we say how "spectacular" the Ashes are...[/b]

Yeah thanks mate, i forgot to add how exciting rugby is in the NH forgive me for even forgetting to mention it :huh: :huh:

 

[Bullitt]

Ah, that old arguement.

"I can't defend it here, I'll slag off the NH instead... That'll unite all of us..."

 

[Nickdnz]

I agree on one thing, recent rugby in SH has been poor. However i think that can be attributed alot because of the death of the "running game" and the introduction of "kick the ball constantly and aimlessly, and wait for a penalty", a method the north has been well practised in for years...